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Tokyo Scoring Strings: How good is it?

StefanoM said:
From the user's perspective, I understand the issue.

And I would like to be able to try many libraries before purchasing, just like you.

If I reason as a developer, I tell you that I would like the same, especially for indie developers like me.

If it were possible to try the libraries, I'm sure I would have sold even more.

However, it's technically challenging to do something like that with Kontakt, but if there were the will on the part of NI, it could be done, I believe, a sort of time-based licensing system.

The same goes for reselling a used library.

Who guarantees that the user won't keep a copy? Take, for example, libraries for Kontakt Full; they don't have serial numbers.

So you could easily keep the files in the system and "sell" your copy.

It becomes a kind of piracy this way.

To be able to sell a "used" library, with Kontakt the entire licensing system would need to change, also for the Kontakt Full libraries.

For example, through an iLok key. This way, it's much safer to sell a used library, as you transfer the usage license.

( To bring it back on topic, I love Tokyo S Strings )
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I think thatā€™s a great point that I hadnā€™t considered. Most indie developers seem to depend on Kontakt or other ā€œshellsā€, so are beholden to NI (or other such companies) and their policies, restrictions, and rules.

Itā€™s too bad there isnā€™t an open source plugin shell (sorry, Iā€™m not familiar with the exact terminology). That seems like it would go a long way toward fixing the problem. And it really is a problem, because as you said, trials and transfers are not only good for the end users, they also benefit the developer.
 
After I wrote that, I just did a search and found out that what I referred to as a shell is called a ā€œplugin hostā€ (makes sense), and there is indeed a free open source plugin host available to developers called Carla:

KXStudio : Applications : Carla

KXStudio : Applications : Carla
kx.studio kx.studio

Now Iā€™m not sure if it has comparable features to kontakt, but perhaps over time it will.

And sorry for inadvertently hijacking this thread!
 
I agree that MSS is sonically more like sculpting clay, more than almost any other library I own, in fact (including TSS).

The main thing MSS does not do well on its own is wide romantic vibrato like CSS. They added a molto feature but itā€™s not as dramatic a vibrato as others ā€” likely due to the intent of the product, which is Modern Scoring, which I take to mean contemporary scoring, where that wide Romantic vibrato is less in style.

I agree both TSS and MSS respond well to some external reverb. The included Galois verb with TSS is very nice but I still enjoy others, like Cinematic Rooms, personally.

TSS has a different aesthetic out of the box (the Board Mix) but includes a multi mic version that I have not played with much, yet. Itā€™s a smaller library in terms of section sizes. Itā€™s good with agile writing ā€¦

I would say MSS tends toward slightly more flowy fast parts and TSS is slightly more precise and accurate, out of the box, but they both have tons and tons of controls to sculpt the transitions.

Both can be quite dry.

I would say MSS is easier to fit in a mix and TSS tends to call attention to itself, but that could just me and ymmv. TSS has a bit of an ā€œanimatedā€ character (no pun intended) while MSS tends to feel slightly more big and grand (although that could be due to its larger size of course, when not muting half the divisi).

They are both extremely flexible and feature rich (MSS more so, due to many additional recordings) and neither is super easy for a first timer.

They are both race cars.

You (probably) wonā€™t simply jump in and pop the clutch without knowing how to drive.

That doesnā€™t mean you shouldnā€™t try and learn!

Iā€™d go with the one that captures your imagination based on the sound, because thatā€™s the one you likely use more often and want to learn.
 
AWit said:
After I wrote that, I just did a search and found out that what I referred to as a shell is called a ā€œplugin hostā€ (makes sense), and there is indeed a free open source plugin host available to developers called Carla:

KXStudio : Applications : Carla

KXStudio : Applications : Carla
kx.studio kx.studio

Now Iā€™m not sure if it has comparable features to kontakt, but perhaps over time it will.

And sorry for inadvertently hijacking this thread!
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Kontakt is a sampler. Carla hosts plug-ins like Kontakt.
 
AWit said:
I think thatā€™s a great point that I hadnā€™t considered. Most indie developers seem to depend on Kontakt or other ā€œshellsā€, so are beholden to NI (or other such companies) and their policies, restrictions, and rules.

Itā€™s too bad there isnā€™t an open source plugin shell (sorry, Iā€™m not familiar with the exact terminology). That seems like it would go a long way toward fixing the problem. And it really is a problem, because as you said, trials and transfers are not only good for the end users, they also benefit the developer.
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Thereā€™s other threads for this topicā€¦ maybe someone can help find one of them.
 
Marko Cifer said:
I have both, and honestly, while both have been excellent pick-ups for me, I use both for very different aesthetic goals (also, I use both in conjunction with "sister" libraries - Sonokinetic's Orchestral Divisi Strings for MSS, Audio Imperia's Areia for TSS). So I'm going to write the rest of this post with the assumption as if both of them are equally aesthetically pleasing to you (although I will touch on certain things tone-wise anyways). Also, keep in mind that this is only how I approach and use them - I'm certain I haven't even started to get close to use either of them to their fullest potentials.

MSS, while it's full of content and has advanced features (not to mention allows you to write in Divisi), it needs work to get good results out of it. Nothing you can't learn (I'm still learning myself). I would still be very hesitant to suggest that it's a good fit for someone starting out, unless I'd know that person is willing to put in the work and is ready for the learning curve. Not specifically because of the features, but because of the tone and room characteristics. Those can be somewhat overwhelming (or "boxy" as people like to describe it). And even if you really like the sound out of the box from the examples you've heard - once you start adding instruments on top of each other, it can be a bit much, so I feel that it's good to be ready for some carving to make everything sit nicely together. At least from my perspective, MSS is this box of thick clay, and you have to carve out your desired sound from it. Also, while MSS does have the auto-divisi feature, and while it can be very nice (especially for the shorts), for certain things I'd still recommend to use the A and B sections separately, for better dynamics control.

TSS, while I've had it for a shorter amount of time, feels like it's easier to understand how to use & get it up and running, both feature-wise and tone-wise, so it would make more sense to recommend to a beginner. Not quite as feature-packed, but it's still a very good and comprehensive library. Similar story with the content. But if MSS's sound needs to be carved out, TSS to me feels more like you need to space it out a bit due to its nature and add to the sound of it for it to shine (a good reverb I feel is a must, even though you do have access to some of them in the library itself). One thing I'd point out is that out of the box, the library is configured to have very little dynamic range - that's something you need to increase via the interface if it'll feel too tight.

Neither of them are "quick and easy gratification" libraries with pre-produced sounds out of the box, but to me, TSS is probably a bit easier (or at least faster) to get to a good state. You do need to somewhat know what you're doing with both. For example, with MSS, usually the first thing people learn is that it's a good idea to turn the built-in reverb and EQ off, and then proceed from there. Both have quite powerful engines which allow you to modify and tweak quite a lot of things, so they're versatile. If you end up preferring to use mic positions over pre-made mixes like I do, both can take up quite a bit of RAM if you're not careful. However, both have ways to help with memory management.

Both also have planned & teased upcoming updates which will, apparently, add, enhance and refine quite a bit, but I'd advise from buying based upon "promises of the future".

Now, if you're looking for a more close-up, intimate feel of the strings, I'd say that both will do just fine (MSS has nice close mics, TSS is studio-focused, both can sound "smaller but full" and thus more focused than a lot of libraries out there). Both can then be shaped pretty well into other sound profiles (people have posted on how to "westernize" TSS so it can be used outside of its comfort zone, as well as tips and tricks on how to tame MSS's tone). Both, if used properly, can be shaped to the point where you can place them rather convincingly into different spaces (or at least, close enough). Both have pretty aggressive-sounding high dynamics that should be used sparingly.

MSS does have an upper edge where its Divisi feature lets you go smaller or larger, while with TSS you'd need to use the transposition trick or layer it with something else if you'd want a larger sound.


Yes - as you say, either programmed in via piano roll or played in via MIDI controller. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of using the various versions of the Auto Rhythm Tool in MSS, but YMMV. Such tools can surely save a lot of time, but I'm just not happy with the results.


Unfortunately, with sample libraries, you won't truly know how well it fits your desired aesthetic and fits your needs until you try it out for yourself. I hope you find at least some value and food for thought out of this comparison. Good luck with your choice!
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How do you use TSS and Areia together? Do you basically use TSS as divisi?
 
Jrides said:
How do you use TSS and Areia together? Do you basically use TSS as divisi?
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Mostly I use both when I want to give myself more variation in my selection of shorts, as I feel that that both of them have quite good short articulations. And unlike the MSS/SOS combo, where I'm looking for a particular weight to the shorts, TSS/Areia's shorts are more agile, I feel.

I like to rapidly swap between the two or have them side by side (thanks to a roughly similar feel of the shorts, even if the performances and number of players are different and TSS rings out more than Areia - but therein lies the additional variation), so it's not Divisi writing per-se, but I'll probaly give that a fair shot at some point (I haven't had TSS for very long yet). I'll see how I feel about that once I get there. You do have to fiddle around with the velocity curve for both so this ends up working better, but thankfully, both have the tools to do just that in their respective engines.

I've also attempted to go back to some projects where I felt like Areia's violins' long articulations weren't working quite how I liked in a particular context, but then tried doubling up TSS's V1 and V2s to substitute, and at least in one case, I liked the results better.

Sometimes I've also layered the two (the pre-made mixes of the two don't mesh well for me, but using the mics can get you in a reasonable enough spot), but that's still a work in progress, with mixed results. I do feel that you need to EQ one or both of them for them to sit better alongside eachother though, so it's not something that "just works", and I'm still working on that. But so far, when attempting to layer the two, with some articulations I feel like their differences make them slot together interestingly, even though I do feel like I need to carve out some sonic space so there isn't too much build-up.

Oh, while we're on the topic of using TSS alongside other libraries, one pairing that truly surprised me was actually TSS and Albion Neo's strings. See, in Neo, the string shorts there just do not agree with me at all (I do like the rest of the library reasonably well, especially paired with Appassionata), and one thing I used to do was to use SF's Solo Strings to help, but it turns out I really like the sound of TSS's shorts at low dynamics on top of Albion Neo's shorts patch!
 
AWit said:
Wow, thank you so much @Marko Cifer, what a detailed and useful response!

It sounds like what I was hoping for does not exist: a library that sounds good out of the box, is easy to tweak, has useful tools like look ahead (does not require nudging notes or pre-delays), has runs and ostinatos that sound good, auto-divisi, solo/chamber/full orchestra, and does not require a ton of time in general so that I can focus on composing/arranging.
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I believe that these are opposing needs. A library can either be great sounding right out of the box without much tweaking, or it can be comprehensive and flexible and all-inclusive, but by necessity that will take a lot more work. A better method is to have more than one library option depending on your needs
 
Marko Cifer said:
One thing I'd point out is that out of the box, the library is configured to have very little dynamic range - that's something you need to increase via the interface if it'll feel too tight.
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Just to respond to this point: TSS has a slider from 0% to 200% DR, with the default position at 100% (which is as-recorded). So itā€™s better to say that TSS is configured to have very naturalistic dynamic range, but this can be squashed or widened as the needs of the mix or oneā€™s aesthetic sensibilities dictate.
 
Kent said:
Just to respond to this point: TSS has a slider from 0% to 200% DR, with the default position at 100% (which is as-recorded). So itā€™s better to say that TSS is configured to have very naturalistic dynamic range, but this can be squashed or widened as the needs of the mix or oneā€™s aesthetic sensibilities dictate.
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Thanks for the clarification! I just checked and you're right, the DR slider does explain this.

That detail makes me chuckle somewhat, because I was just talking yesterday about how Areia handles this and how I feel like the range is set too wide there by default, and I found it pleasing to use the Dynamic Range knob to make it a bit closer to how it was recorded (with the lowest value representing the actual recorded dynamics), whereas with TSS I felt like the range was too narrow by default and my first impulse was to look on how to widen it (by going beyond the recorded dynamics).

Interesting.
 
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