Advice on Spitfire Library

It might be hard for folks to give you a specific recommendation without understanding how you prioritize what type music you want to write (cinematic is kind of broad), what your future budget for libraries might be, and whether you want to do detailed orchestration by instrument or more broadly sketch with ensemble patches.

You mention some of these factors in your post, but you might want to think in broader terms than just these three libraries within the Spitfire ecosystem - or consider all-in-one choices outside of it like Audio Imperia’s Nucleus or Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition (or others for more aggressive sound like Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark 1 or Audio Imperia Jaeger, as well). Of these, Hollywood Orchestra skews toward a bigger sound and is available on special currently for the $300 price you mention.

Of the three you mention, Abbey Road targets a John Williams-like sound, Colossus leans more loud and Epic, and BBCSO is a proper classical choice with a lot of writing utility - especially when expanded into Pro. What library sounds the best to you, and matches the writing style you want to pursue, and offers room for growth is a good place to start.

Of the things you've listed, BBCSO core is a no-brainer. You are comparing apples and oranges. But of these, BBSCO will be the most versatile.

VannKraken said:

It might be hard for folks to give you a specific recommendation without understanding how you prioritize what type music you want to write (cinematic is kind of broad), what your future budget for libraries might be, and whether you want to do detailed orchestration by instrument or more broadly sketch with ensemble patches.

You mention some of these factors in your post, but you might want to think in broader terms than just these three libraries within the Spitfire ecosystem - or consider all-in-one choices outside of it like Audio Imperia’s Nucleus or Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition (or others for more aggressive sound like Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark 1 or Audio Imperia Jaeger, as well). Of these, Hollywood Orchestra skews toward a bigger sound and is available on special currently for the $300 price you mention.

Of the three you mention, Abbey Road targets a John Williams-like sound, Colossus leans more loud and Epic, and BBCSO is a proper classical choice with a lot of writing utility - especially when expanded into Pro. What library sounds the best to you, and matches the writing style you want to pursue, and offers room for growth is a good place to start.

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Alright, thanks for the response. I'm thinking BBCSO might be the best option with the most versatility as I'm not quite sure myself exactly what style I would prefer the most, and watching others' compositions with the library it seems like it can achieve that "epic" sound.

I'm going to continue looking through other libraries to see what would be most cost-effective and fit my needs. Thanks for the heads up about the sale on Hollywood Orchestra.

FusionAtom360 said:

Alright, thanks for the response. I'm thinking BBCSO might be the best option with the most versatility as I'm not quite sure myself exactly what style I would prefer the most, and watching others' compositions with the library it seems like it can achieve that "epic" sound.

I'm going to continue looking through other libraries to see what would be most cost-effective and fit my needs. Thanks for the heads up about the sale on Hollywood Orchestra.

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The one main complaint about BBSCO from an epic level sound perspective is that the brass range and higher end volume is limited. However, there is no reason that you can't supplement it with another brass library like Talos from Audio Imperia, Cinebrass (which is included in the expansive Cinesamples Musio 1 deal - which is another potential starting choice for you - for less than $300 if you purchase it from Best Service by the 31st), Cinematic Studio Brass, JXL/Berlin Brass from Orchestral Tools, or another Spitfire brass library option down the road.

The type of room that each library is recorded in will have a bearing on how well they pair together, but with skillful use of reverb, you can get a lot of libraries to blend or layer effectively.

Lastly, you are doing the right thing by trying to NOT pay full retail price by using your edu discount or frequent sales to your full advantage! Every library goes on sale at some point and the discounts or bundle deals tend to get better each successive year a library has been out.

FusionAtom360 said:

Abbey Road One: I like that it has separate trumpets and horns patches, but the lack of legato patches concerned me. How important is that to this type of composition?

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I’m going to try to answer this legato question about AROOF with sound. Do you notice the lack of legato in this mock-up?



Btw I could fix the late woodwinds runs, but I didn’t take the time to do it. It creates a sort of disjointed rhythm for some sections, but that is user error on my part. I was still learning all the timing controls and offsets and missed something I should have caught sooner, before posting the video.

My point is that legato isn’t always the most important. At least not when starting out. Others might have another opinion?

Soundbed said:

Do you notice the lack of legato in this mock-up?

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Well, yes. 100%. You notice immediately that all the attacks on the sustained notes are very slow, which completely interrupts the flow of the music. Legato/interval transitions would help keep consistency in the sound (assuming they are done well and don't suck), resulting in more realism and, in my opinion, a much more musically expressive sound.

As an aside, in the video you say the horn isn't using 'legato' on the OST, but this conflates the real-world and sample-land meaning of that concept. The performance of that horn line could definitely benefit from some interval samples (both re-tongued and slurred) to create a more realistic performance.

Here is the force theme played with BBCSO (and a 'legato' horn) for comparison:





And here is a version with EW Hollywood Orchestra:





And here is live version, just for reference:




I know these types of comparison's aren't perfect, as they are made by different users with different tools and skills, but they should at least elucidate my point above about slow attacks breaking the immersion and how 'legato' samples can counteract this.

Soundbed said:

My point is that legato isn’t always the most important.

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I actually agree, but your example doesn't support this point. A piece with slow sustains or a fast action cue with lots of shorts would have demonstrated it better.

This being said, if OP isn't bothered by the lack of 'legato' after your and my contribution to the discussion, then products like AROOF and Albion might be right up their alley. There are still a lot of useful sounds in there. It all comes down to their aesthetic aims and preferences again.

Snarf said:

This being said, if OP isn't bothered by the lack of 'legato' after your and my contribution to the discussion, then products like AROOF and Albion might be right up their alley.

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The Albion actually HAS legato patches whereas AROOF doesn’t. I mean, if we’re being meticulous…

FusionAtom360 said:

Hello,

I'm having a difficult time deciding between three Spitfire orchestral libraries - Abbey Road One, BBCSO Core, and Albion Colossus. If someone who has experience using any of these could help me out that would be great. I want to compose cinematic-style music, and I currently own BBCSO Discover and Originals Orchestra.

I'm limiting my choices to Spitfire libraries as I get an educational discount so they're all $314 but if there are better options please let me know.

Abbey Road One: I like that it has separate trumpets and horns patches, but the lack of legato patches concerned me. How important is that to this type of composition?

BBCSO Core: It has great reviews all around and extremely high quality sound, and each instrument is its own patch, yet there aren't any ensemble patches and it seems more geared towards a classical sound so I'm not sure it would fit my needs.

Albion Colossus: I like the epic sound to it but as many reviews have mentioned it does get a bit synthetic-sounding with the extra effects and the guitar is not great.


Any help with this decision would be appreciated as well as any other suggestions not on this list.

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As @Jett Hitt said you are comparing (/asking us to compare) apples and oranges. I don't think you've fully grasped the differences between these products yet, and neither are you sure what exactly it is that you're looking for (I mean that in the nicest and most constructive way possible). Therefore I'll start with some very basic advice:

- From the looks of it you still have quite a bit of research ahead of you if you want to make an informed decision. Please take that time and don't rush anything as sample libraries are generally expensive and non-refundable.
- Spitfire does make some nice libraries but they're definitely not the only option out there. Speaking of educational discounts, Orchestral Tools (also a fantastic developer of orchestral libraries) offers a permanent educational discount of 40%.
- Generally the mantra is "Never buy anything that's not on sale!". With educational discounts of 30-40% you should still be able to go ahead in good conscience, just be aware that most developers regularly offer their products for at least 30% off. Spitfire for example has had a few 50% off sales in the past and for some (infamous) devs even 80-90% off can be a regular occurence.
- "Epic" is a very broad and somewhat overused term and can mean lots of different things. One might call Beethoven's fifth Symphony epic or Thomas Bergersen's "None Shall Live" (that one is so over the top that it's actually kind of ridiculous - I'm a big Bergersen fan though, but I digress...). What I'm getting at is that if you want us to tell you if BBCSO can achieve "that epic sound" you will have to provide examples of what you mean by "epic".

FusionAtom360 said:

I'm not quite sure myself exactly what style I would prefer the most

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Maybe try to figure this out before you spend 300-500$ on a non-refundable piece of software then?
What music inspires you? Who are your favorite composers? If you had to choose three pieces of music to recreate in order to learn from them, what would you choose?

doctoremmet said:

The Albion actually HAS legato patches whereas AROOF doesn’t. I mean, if we’re being meticulous…

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True, Albion Colossos has some legato patches. However, this only applies to broad instrument combinations like 'low strings', 'high strings', 'brass', 'woodwinds' - the only exceptions being horns a3/a8 and piccolos a2/a3. On the whole, I think it's fair to put these libraries in a different category than those which offer per instrument section control, such as BBCSO, EW HO, Nucleus, Musio 1, etc.

I never stated anything less. Just that the Albion library does come with legato patches. The whole comparison is a bit silly anyway and seems driven by nothing else than “must be Spitfire” + “must hit similar price point” criteria. Which I can understand to a certain extent. But these threads always pose questions that technically are unanswerable anyway.

Laurin Lenschow said:

As @Jett Hitt said you are comparing (/asking us to compare) apples and oranges. I don't think you've fully grasped the differences between these products yet, and neither are you sure what exactly it is that you're looking for (I mean that in the nicest and most constructive way possible). Therefore I'll start with some very basic advice:

- From the looks of it you still have quite a bit of research ahead of you if you want to make an informed decision. Please take that time and don't rush anything as sample libraries are generally expensive and non-refundable.
- Spitfire does make some nice libraries but they're definitely not the only option out there. Speaking of educational discounts, Orchestral Tools (also a fantastic developer of orchestral libraries) offers a permanent educational discount of 40%.
- Generally the mantra is "Never buy anything that's not on sale!". With educational discounts of 30-40% you should still be able to go ahead in good conscience, just be aware that most developers regularly offer their products for at least 30% off. Spitfire for example has had a few 50% off sales in the past and for some (infamous) devs even 80-90% off can be a regular occurence.
- "Epic" is a very broad and somewhat overused term and can mean lots of different things. One might call Beethoven's fifth Symphony epic or Thomas Bergersen's "None Shall Live" (that one is so over the top that it's actually kind of ridiculous - I'm a big Bergersen fan though, but I digress...). What I'm getting at is that if you want us to tell you if BBCSO can achieve "that epic sound" you will have to provide examples of what you mean by "epic".


Maybe try to figure this out before you spend 300-500$ on a non-refundable piece of software then?
What music inspires you? Who are your favorite composers? If you had to choose three pieces of music to recreate in order to learn from them, what would you choose?

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Thank you for the advice. I apologize if my language was not descriptive enough to merit constructive feedback. I will give this decision a lot of thought and try to figure out exactly what sort of sound I want before diving in. In terms of inspiration, I find myself drawn towards a more hybrid sound with other instruments - Zimmer Inception-style (I know, I know), Michael Price, and Gorranson's unique sounds. However, I'm thinking that might merit the purchase of separate libraries to fulfill that sound, so buying this as a sort of foundation would likely be the best method.

doctoremmet said:

I never stated anything less. Just that the Albion library does come with legato patches. The whole comparison is a bit silly anyway and seems driven by nothing else than “must be Spitfire” + “must hit similar price point” criteria. Which I can understand to a certain extent. But these threads always pose questions that technically are unanswerable anyway.

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You are correct, I do feel as if I'm being a little close-minded about being in the Spitfire ecosystem - it's just what I'm currently used to but I am open to other options like the ones @VannKraken suggested.

Soundbed said:

I’m going to try to answer this legato question about AROOF with sound. Do you notice the lack of legato in this mock-up?



Btw I could fix the late woodwinds runs, but I didn’t take the time to do it. It creates a sort of disjointed rhythm for some sections, but that is user error on my part. I was still learning all the timing controls and offsets and missed something I should have caught sooner, before posting the video.

My point is that legato isn’t always the most important. At least not when starting out. Others might have another opinion?

Click to expand...

Sorry, but I would agree with @Snarf on this one - I definitely can hear the slower attack time in the example you provided. I felt with BBCSO Discover that I was limited by that exact factor in writing single melodic lines and just had to deal with it.

Snarf said:

in the video you say the horn isn't using 'legato' on the OST, but this conflates the real-world and sample-land meaning of that concept. The performance of that horn line could definitely benefit from some interval samples (both re-tongued and slurred) to create a more realistic performance

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Good point! Thanks for making it.

Snarf said:

your example doesn't support this point. A piece with slow sustains or a fast action cue with lots of shorts would have demonstrated it better

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No, my example probably doesn’t and I probably should have left that last paragraph about whether it matters out of my post.

But the comment in the video was based on the reference recording (not your examples of the force theme), where only one [EDIT: okay, maybe a couple] “fingered” legato transition(s) between the last two pitches jumps out at me, and the rest could be faked with lots of mod wheel / expression riding (probably better than I did it).

So, for that particular opening horn line, I was specifically talking about this OST recording, which barely hints at sample user “legato” until that last transition, the way I’m hearing it :



I ran through most of my other horns to see how well they could perform it before coming back to AROOF and realizing I was trying to perform (with samples) way more exaggerated slur/fingered legato moves than I was hearing in that OST by the live player.

In any case, the lack of legato really reared its head after that part … when the whole musicality of the piece becomes slightly janky and off kilter, even though it “sounds” like a soundtrack if one isn’t trying to hear all the connection between the players,

…which is user error on my part to a large extent, and also could be to some extent simply “challenging” for anyone based on the way the AROOF package works.

---

EDIT: so while the video has this text —



— it could have been more clear to have typed something more wordy, like, "sampled legato may not be required to effectively mimic all note transitions in the OST anyway" or something ... (This kind of discussion is partly why I slowed down on making videos, because it takes so much effort to dissect and clarify every little vague-ness, to address everyones' perceptions and perspectives. That said, I figured putting that comment on the video would need to get addressed someday, and that day is today. *sigh*)

FusionAtom360 said:

You are correct, I do feel as if I'm being a little close-minded about being in the Spitfire ecosystem - it's just what I'm currently used to

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Hey, no offense - I know exactly how this works. You see a sale, start browsing a website of a vendor you know and like and then you come across various options that seemingly (and actually) have an overlap.

And even extending your search to more vendors won’t “help”, because now your hunting grounds will have grown exponentially. So you go to fora like this one, drop a question and have smart-asses like myself tell you to first find out “what you miss in your current toolkit”, while most of those very same smart-asses (well, I know I have) have only actually found out what they really needed by purchasing a lot of stuff and liking some of it while disliking another part of it. And that experience isn’t all that useful for YOU, because A) you want to do other music than the smart-asses, B) your taste is unique, C) you likely prefer a different workflow, etc…

TL;DR. No offense at all mate! And sorry for being a smart-ass. Good luck picking the library you really like!

FusionAtom360 said:

Sorry, but I would agree with @Snarf on this one - I definitely can hear the slower attack time in the example you provided. I felt with BBCSO Discover that I was limited by that exact factor in writing single melodic lines and just had to deal with it.

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See reply above and the OST for that horn line.

Jett Hitt said:

Of the things you've listed, BBCSO core is a no-brainer. You are comparing apples and oranges. But of these, BBSCO will be the most versatile.

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I agree, though for cinematic going to epic I'd say HOOPUS is the no-brainer in this price range.

SupremeFist said:

I agree, though for cinematic going to epic I'd say HOOPUS is the no-brainer in this price range.

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Especially when bought at Best Service, with an additional $40 off (code: HNY-40-24) and Spaces II for free. I’d go as far as to call that the best deal of 2023 period. And HOOPUS is a great orchestral collection, in a great player. For freakin’ $259?! Best Service even throw in a free gift, so pick Sonuscure’s The Orchestra Light, just for giggles.

doctoremmet said:

Especially when bought at Best Service, with an additional $40 off (code: HNY-40-24) and Spaces II for free. I’d go as far as to call that the best deal of 2023 period. And HOOPUS is a great orchestral collection, in a great player. For freakin’ $259?! Best Service even throw in a free gift, so pick Sonuscure’s The Orchestra Light, just for giggles.

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That's an insane bargain!

FusionAtom360 said:

Hello,

I'm having a difficult time deciding between three Spitfire orchestral libraries - Abbey Road One, BBCSO Core, and Albion Colossus. If someone who has experience using any of these could help me out that would be great. I want to compose cinematic-style music, and I currently own BBCSO Discover and Originals Orchestra.

I'm limiting my choices to Spitfire libraries as I get an educational discount so they're all $314 but if there are better options please let me know.

Abbey Road One: I like that it has separate trumpets and horns patches, but the lack of legato patches concerned me. How important is that to this type of composition?

BBCSO Core: It has great reviews all around and extremely high quality sound, and each instrument is its own patch, yet there aren't any ensemble patches and it seems more geared towards a classical sound so I'm not sure it would fit my needs.

Albion Colossus: I like the epic sound to it but as many reviews have mentioned it does get a bit synthetic-sounding with the extra effects and the guitar is not great.


Any help with this decision would be appreciated as well as any other suggestions not on this list.

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In many people opinion Albion 1 > Colossus. And there is Also Albion Legacy which is the original Albion and still many pros use to this day. Which you can get now for about 140$ with EDU discount? 4 mic positions, each section has legato and FX patches, ensembles only. Cheapest way to Albion epic sound.

I like this AROOF example: