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Sample Talk Thread: OT Benjamin Wallfisch Strings

When I joined this forum over 10 years ago now the general discourse indeed generally revolved around samples and how to get samples to do what you want them to do. There were some incredibly experienced and informed members that posted regularly. Over the last few years though, it seems to me that the discourse has evolved to be:

- 75% about the prices of libraries, which are better value for money and the various "deals" that are constantly popping up.
- 15% about legato
- 10% the other 90% of issues surrounding using samples.

I'm guilty of some of that myself and the discussion of price/value is important but, it is interesting to me, that around the same time, many veteran members left, exacerbating this cycle of endless discussion by newer members of prices and deals.
 
I think you guys are on the money with we are at the point of diminishing returns. If you are at a level in your career where you have access to live musicians, does making a mock-up using a library that has alternating up and down bow even make sense when you probably already have a workflow with other libraries?

So really this library is vying for the crowd that doesn't have access to an orchestra yet and need to deliver a finished product. However the articulation set is so small that you might have to use another library to supplement it at which point, can you justify the high cost for that minutia over other tried and true workhorses? Everyone is in a different position financially and to someone who money is of no object this is certainly a no brainier library, for those who aren't so privileged it is a hard sale.

I wonder if high end sample library developers hurt their own sales by marketing their products as a luxury product instead of aiming for the masses at a lower price point. I know if OT started bundling products for flash sales ie (MODUS+Peteris Vask+BWS) I wouldn't be able to resist.

At the end of the day when sitting down to slay the dragon sometimes what keeps you going is using tools that inspire you. With that said I'd love to hear more examples of from those who bought the library!
 
lukevaljean said:
If you are at a level in your career where you have access to live musicians, does making a mock-up using a library that has alternating up and down bow even make sense when you probably already have a workflow with other libraries?
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I think what keeps getting missed is libraries like this are seemingly built for the composer who approaches them to create a custom library for their specific needs. For example, Hans Zimmer Strings that was built for Dunkirk.

At some point in the process, a decision is made between the composer and the library maker to sell it to the public and put their name on it. The why's and the how's are only known by them.

Sometimes they're something more niche (like BWS) and sometimes they're more widely applicable (JXL/TH Brass) based on the criteria set by the composer in question.
 
I have only purchased the 1st Violins tutti so far, that I have the opportunity to compare them to other libraries. I admit, that demos, that show the new features, sound quite fantastic. First I was not totally convinced by the legato sus patches, however. There are nuances, of course, regarding up and down strokes. This is why East West has recorded them, because down strokes allow for stronger playing. My first impression was, that the legato transitions lack a bit of realism, but, of course, players aren't playing either only down strokes or only up strokes. As time went by, I realized, that the strings sound quite fantastic and lively. Yes, and also the non-loop approach makes it just easier to establish lively sounding strings. Other methods are to use different libraries for very long notes and additionally to employ the Dennis Sands trick. There are different vibratos built-in, as it seems, that allow for the realization of certain musical intentions. A real sample gold here are the shorts. The sound quite special. While there are libraries, that seem to have only manufactured marcatos and some of them sound a bit lifeless, these marcatos really sound very nice and lively. Regarding manufactured marcatos it is a mistake, by the way, when spiccato heads or overlays are used, because this is not the nature of spiccato playing to be a head of a marcato articulation; only staccato or sforzando heads can be used. I found so far that HWS marcatos sound somehow similar to the BWS marcatos, above all the Marc Sus patch. The Short 1,0 in SSS can maybe also compared to them to some degree. The staccatos are also fantastic, while there are other libraries that also have really great ones, just sounding different. The spiccatos sound quite special and unique, a bit like those from Tableau Strings, but different in the end. They are of special use for that particular sound and layering with other libraries yields further nice results. Just try the phenomenal PVS spiccatos and those from BWS or other combinations. I guess, that I will end up buying the tuttis, because of the shorts, that are, as far as I am concerned, quite special, although I have, as already mentioned, understood and recognized the merits of the legato sus and sus patches. Yes, and similar to the single horn approach of Berlin Brass the divisi allow for more realism and liveliness.
 
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syrinx said:
What is the Dennis Sands trick?
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The Dennis Sands trick is a method of establishing some variations or fluctuations in long standing notes by changing the volume every bit of a second by small amounts, not higher than 5db. In this way the small and nearly imperceptible volume changes make these notes less static sounding, but more lively. Additionally, it can be recommended to apply this method on dynamics and vibrato as well. ()
 
Andreas M. Wimmer said:
The Dennis Sands trick is a method of establishing some variations or fluctuations in long standing notes by changing the volume every bit of a second by small amounts, not higher than 5db. In this way the small and nearly imperceptible volume changes make these notes less static sounding, but more lively. Additionally, it can be recommended to apply this method on dynamics and vibrato as well. ()
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Thanks! Always fun to learn new things!
 
I do something similar by inserting an upwards expander, on a channel or bus, that is controlled via sidechain by an audio file containing spoken word. Doesn’t matter what sort of speech it is, as long as you’ve got someone talking. The great thing about speech, for this purpose anyway, is that it’s dynamically extremely irregular and random. Which is exactly what we need.

Now, if you have a recording of spoken word control an upwards expander — set to expand, not too fast, by no more than one or two dB’s, maybe three (just make sure the effect isn’t obvious) — you get these subtle random fluctuations in volume. Barely audible, but does adds a suggestion of life to the often dead sound of sample-based audio. And you can’t get quite the same result with automation. (You might however get close by controlling a gain plug-in, set to make the smallest of changes, with a sample-and-hold wave.)

There are loads of other parameters that can be modulated in this way of course. Any processor that can listen to a sidechain input, can be used. What it comes down is creating extremely small, hardly noticeable and totally random changes in timbre, volume, even balance that, together, take some of the sterility out of sample-based work.

_
 
re-peat said:
I do something similar by inserting an upwards expander, on a channel or bus, that is controlled via sidechain by an audio file containing spoken word. Doesn’t matter what sort of speech it is, as long as you’ve got someone talking. The great thing about speech, for this purpose anyway, is that it’s dynamically extremely irregular and random. Which is exactly what we need.

Now, if you have a recording of spoken word control an upwards expander — set to expand, not too fast, by no more than one or two dB’s, maybe three (just make sure the effect isn’t obvious) — you get these subtle random fluctuations in volume. Barely audible, but does adds a suggestion of life to the often dead sound of sample-based audio. And you can’t get quite the same result with automation. (You might however get close by controlling a gain plug-in, set to make the smallest of changes, with a sample-and-hold wave.)

There are loads of other parameters that can be modulated in this way of course. Any processor that can listen to a sidechain input, can be used. What it comes down is creating extremely small, hardly noticeable and totally random changes in timbre, volume, even balance that, together, take some of the sterility out of sample-based work.

_
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Wow, that is a fascinating idea! Thanks so much for sharing that! Do you think your background in visual arts and design is helping you come up with these things? I'm asking because this technique makes sense to me immediately and I'm reminded of using texture overlays in Photoshop to liven up an area of an illustration that might otherwise look too flat and lifeless.
 
re-peat said:
I do something similar by inserting an upwards expander, on a channel or bus, that is controlled via sidechain by an audio file containing spoken word. Doesn’t matter what sort of speech it is, as long as you’ve got someone talking. The great thing about speech, for this purpose anyway, is that it’s dynamically extremely irregular and random. Which is exactly what we need.

Now, if you have a recording of spoken word control an upwards expander — set to expand, not too fast, by no more than one or two dB’s, maybe three (just make sure the effect isn’t obvious) — you get these subtle random fluctuations in volume. Barely audible, but does adds a suggestion of life to the often dead sound of sample-based audio. And you can’t get quite the same result with automation. (You might however get close by controlling a gain plug-in, set to make the smallest of changes, with a sample-and-hold wave.)

There are loads of other parameters that can be modulated in this way of course. Any processor that can listen to a sidechain input, can be used. What it comes down is creating extremely small, hardly noticeable and totally random changes in timbre, volume, even balance that, together, take some of the sterility out of sample-based work.

_
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These are great ideas and methods! Thank you very much for sharing this! With regard to percussive sounds, by the way, the Naturaliser plugin by Rast Sound often works quite well.
 
There's an interesting conversation about how Dennis Sands makes samples sound more alive, literally in the middle of a conversation about how the quality of the forum is going downhill because nobody talks about things like that anymore. This forum, like everything in life, is what we make of it

re-peat said:
I do something similar by inserting an upwards expander, on a channel or bus, that is controlled via sidechain by an audio file containing spoken word. Doesn’t matter what sort of speech it is, as long as you’ve got someone talking. The great thing about speech, for this purpose anyway, is that it’s dynamically extremely irregular and random. Which is exactly what we need.

Now, if you have a recording of spoken word control an upwards expander — set to expand, not too fast, by no more than one or two dB’s, maybe three (just make sure the effect isn’t obvious) — you get these subtle random fluctuations in volume. Barely audible, but does adds a suggestion of life to the often dead sound of sample-based audio. And you can’t get quite the same result with automation. (You might however get close by controlling a gain plug-in, set to make the smallest of changes, with a sample-and-hold wave.)

There are loads of other parameters that can be modulated in this way of course. Any processor that can listen to a sidechain input, can be used. What it comes down is creating extremely small, hardly noticeable and totally random changes in timbre, volume, even balance that, together, take some of the sterility out of sample-based work.

_
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I've tried a similar trick before but wasn't sure if I was doing it right, since I couldn't hear a difference at all A/B. I'm going to need to try the specific methods you mentioned and see if I have better results! Thanks for the ideas
 
My friend played bass on that session.
They said it was 6 full days of bass recording including an entire session on Bartok pizz… “Now try that piano”

I don’t know if I want the library, but I will be buying their divisi section haha
 
This library could be perfect after some updates, though the RAM use is incredibly high, and not sure they can ever fix that with all the content. The legato can definitely be a bit bumpy and the vins need more vibrato and vibrato control IMO, but in some ways, these are the most emotional and realistic strings I've ever worked with for film/game scores specifically (not classical or concert music).

Probably still overpriced and not worth having non-looped sustains for the majority of people, it's just the tone and detail/depth of the sound that is incredible and a huge step above the rest to my ears. The up bow and down bow is a pain in the ass to program but I can get things with this library that I just can't do with others, the rebows sound so good. The level of detail and dynamic range is just stunning IMO.
These are all tutti patches, not divisi.
The cellos, basses, and violas are actually the standouts here. The vins aren't bad of course, but they lack vibrato and can sound less engaging and expressive. The violas and low strings honestly just sing and are dripping with emotion to me. The dynamic range is also probably the best out of all strings I've ever tried.

If you have bumpy legato, try not even overlapping the notes and triggering upbows and downbows for the new notes. It sounds really, really good to me.
 

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bfreepro said:
If you have bumpy legato, try not even overlapping the notes and triggering upbows and downbows for the new notes. It sounds really, really good to me.
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I noticed this as well, just playing with the viola divisi A, the only part of the library I have. It makes the library very flexible and is further confirmation that legato is often overused and frequently not even the best solution.
 
Andreas M. Wimmer said:
The Dennis Sands trick is a method of establishing some variations or fluctuations in long standing notes by changing the volume every bit of a second by small amounts, not higher than 5db. In this way the small and nearly imperceptible volume changes make these notes less static sounding, but more lively. Additionally, it can be recommended to apply this method on dynamics and vibrato as well. ()
Click to expand...

I believe I've seen this effect built-in to some SoundPaint Adastra strings presets.
 
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