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CSS (Cinematic Studios) Control Panel - CSS/CSSS/CSB/CSW legato delay solution + other features (1.8, now with Winds!)

Dot said:
Hi,

in the attachment you'll find a script based on the one from @Ihnoc that I've written for myself. Note that the UI is quite different, it does not implement everything from the other script and it may also behave a bit differently. But it should work just fine with 1.7 (at least it does for me) and maybe it also helps with the Legato problem @infinitejester0?

Hope it also works well for you! Let me know if it does or doesn't or if you have any questions :)
Click to expand...
Is anyone using the script with Dorico? Or any of the scripts mentioned on this thread for that matter. I'm using this one and first of all the timing is awesome. Using it with strings, woodwinds and brass and couldn't be happier with the timing between them all.
However keyswitches aren't happening correctly and in particular the single note trill doesn't seem to work. It could very well be that dorico isn't anticipating the keyswitches along with the notes but visually it looks like the keyswitch is in front of the note on message. Anyway my expression maps are all using CC58 values to change articulations but the single note trill is the first one I'd like to figure out.
 
@Dot
I'm using Dot's excellent modification of @Ihnoc's original CSS Control Panel. For context to those wandering into this thread, my understanding is that Ihnoc's script no longer quite works with CSS 1.7, and it is not currently being updated on account of Ihnoc no longer using CSS. Therefore, we're using Dot's modification. I can confirm that the modification works very well.

My question: when you actually play your lines into your DAW, when the script is active, the notes are super delayed. And that's expected, of course.

But in Ihnoc's script, you could set CC 13 to 1-64 and that would "bypass" the script for playing purposes, so that notes will sound when you play them. Then you can set CC13 above 64 and have the script work its magic.

For Dot's script, I notice that CC 13 doesn't have that effect. So what do you folks do when you play in a line? Do you have to push the "bypass" button on the script every time, or is there some other trick that I'm not aware of, which would enable me to bypass without having to go into Kontakt?
 
JM Composer said:
@Dot
I'm using Dot's excellent modification of @Ihnoc's original CSS Control Panel. For context to those wandering into this thread, my understanding is that Ihnoc's script no longer quite works with CSS 1.7, and it is not currently being updated on account of Ihnoc no longer using CSS. Therefore, we're using Dot's modification. I can confirm that the modification works very well.

My question: when you actually play your lines into your DAW, when the script is active, the notes are super delayed. And that's expected, of course.

But in Ihnoc's script, you could set CC 13 to 1-64 and that would "bypass" the script for playing purposes, so that notes will sound when you play them. Then you can set CC13 above 64 and have the script work its magic.

For Dot's script, I notice that CC 13 doesn't have that effect. So what do you folks do when you play in a line? Do you have to push the "bypass" button on the script every time, or is there some other trick that I'm not aware of, which would enable me to bypass without having to go into Kontakt?
Click to expand...
I had the same doubt and realized that the UI of the Script itself tells you: it's the part under Delay Settings called Delay CC. The number next to it (by default 75) is the CC number that controls whether the Delay is active or not and you change it to any CC you want. I read the script source a bit and it says 0-64 = Delay Off (so you can play live etc.) and 65-127 = Delay On. If you click the ''CC Controls Delay'' (which by default is On) it turns this CC feature off so now Delay is Always On at all times.

So yeah, short answer: CC75 by default, 0-64 = Delay Off, 65-127 = Delay On.

A thing (maybe a bug?) I realized in Cubase is that for some reason I need to put two nodes next to teach other on the automation lane to make it work: for example if I want to turn off the Delay, I would put two nodes with the value at 0, instead of just one, for some reason it doesn't work with just one node but maybe it's a bug on my end.

EDIT: Ok I think I figured out why this happens, I will post this in case it can help other people: I THINK that the status of the Delay (whether it's On or Off) is ONLY updated after a KeySwitch is received (this is problematic in Cubase because if the current KeySwitch of an Expression Map doesn't change, it does not send any signals). So if you send the CC75 at 0 at the same time as the KeySwitch Note On it may get bugged and not update the status that CC75 requested. This is solved by sending the CC75 ALWAYS BEFORE the KeySwitch Note On. The other way around this is what I said above: if you send the same CC75 value twice it seems to force it to update.

So in Cubase at least using Expression Maps, always send the CC75 before the Expression Maps' KeySwitch, and most importantly: if you remain in the same KeySwitch and change CC75 it won't update until you send a new (different) KeySwitch or unless you send that CC75 value TWICE.

@Dot thank you so much for your work on this, it has helped me a lot!!!
 
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Dot said:
Hi,

in the attachment you'll find a script based on the one from @Ihnoc that I've written for myself. Note that the UI is quite different, it does not implement everything from the other script and it may also behave a bit differently. But it should work just fine with 1.7 (at least it does for me) and maybe it also helps with the Legato problem @infinitejester0?

Hope it also works well for you! Let me know if it does or doesn't or if you have any questions :)
Click to expand...
Thank you so much for this. Just one question: The slow and medium legato seems a bit off. I tested it with CSW and it seems a bit delayed. I tried to adjust delay in the UI but it doesn't seem to make a difference. Fast legato works without a problem, though.

EDIT: Slow and medium legato seem to work fine in CSSS. Just CSW seems to be a bit off.
 
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What is the v1.8 update referred to in this thread’s title for CSW? I see nothing on their site about such an update. Been waiting for this one for awhile; hoping it will significantly improve phasing issues with CSW - especially the bass clarinet, clarinet and bassoon.
 
Larry Dickstein said:
What is the v1.8 update referred to in this thread’s title for CSW? I see nothing on their site about such an update. Been waiting for this one for awhile; hoping it will significantly improve phasing issues with CSW - especially the bass clarinet, clarinet and bassoon.
Click to expand...
This thread is for an auto-delay lookahead controller script, not the libraries themselves. ;)
 
chizfreak said:
I had the same doubt and realized that the UI of the Script itself tells you: it's the part under Delay Settings called Delay CC. The number next to it (by default 75) is the CC number that controls whether the Delay is active or not and you change it to any CC you want. I read the script source a bit and it says 0-64 = Delay Off (so you can play live etc.) and 65-127 = Delay On. If you click the ''CC Controls Delay'' (which by default is On) it turns this CC feature off so now Delay is Always On at all times.

So yeah, short answer: CC75 by default, 0-64 = Delay Off, 65-127 = Delay On.

A thing (maybe a bug?) I realized in Cubase is that for some reason I need to put two nodes next to teach other on the automation lane to make it work: for example if I want to turn off the Delay, I would put two nodes with the value at 0, instead of just one, for some reason it doesn't work with just one node but maybe it's a bug on my end.
Click to expand...
@chizfreak Thanks alot for this chizfreak. Indeed, you're right, the Delay CC (default at 75, but adjustable to any CC), does indeed turn the script on or off. (For beginner users wandering in here, just ride your fader up past the midpoint to turn the script on, ride your fader down past the midpoint to turn it off.)

And thanks for the additional note about Cubase. I use Logic, and I'm inspired to make a step-by-step tutorial here for Logic users, because @Dot's script absolutely works for CSS. Just give me a few days and I'll be back with that tutorial.

MadLad said:
Thank you so much for this. Just one question: The slow and medium legato seems a bit off. I tested it with CSW and it seems a bit delayed. I tried to adjust delay in the UI but it doesn't seem to make a difference. Fast legato works without a problem, though.

EDIT: Slow and medium legato seem to work fine in CSSS. Just CSW seems to be a bit off.
Click to expand...
@MadLad This might be a dumb suggestion on my part, but did you press the "Apply" button after making adjustments in the UI? I don't have CSW, so I can't test it here, but CSS does seem to work fine for all 3 legatos.

chizfreak said:
@Dot thank you so much for your work on this, it has helped me a lot!!!
Click to expand...

Indeed @Dot you did us all a huge favor with this excellent script. Thanks to @Ihnoc as well with the original version. The legato delay issue had kept me from using CSS, and other solutions had drawbacks, but I now feel good about using CSS.
 
JM Composer said:
@MadLad This might be a dumb suggestion on my part, but did you press the "Apply" button after making adjustments in the UI? I don't have CSW, so I can't test it here, but CSS does seem to work fine for all 3 legatos.
Click to expand...
I don't think I have. I might have to check on that. But yeah, it seems you still gotta tweak the delays a bit despite using the "standard" delays in the script. Maybe it's just preference but I prefer a more strict legato timing.
 
MadLad said:
I don't think I have. I might have to check on that. But yeah, it seems you still gotta tweak the delays a bit despite using the "standard" delays in the script. Maybe it's just preference but I prefer a more strict legato timing.
Click to expand...
Same here. In general, I like my notes right on top of the beat.
 
JM Composer said:
Same here. In general, I like my notes right on top of the beat.
Click to expand...
I got everything set up so far but the medium legato of the woodwinds is still weird. No matter what delay I set it never syncs up. Just gonna use the fast legato exclusively for winds, I guess.
 
MadLad said:
I got everything set up so far but the medium legato of the woodwinds is still weird. No matter what delay I set it never syncs up. Just gonna use the fast legato exclusively for winds, I guess.
Click to expand...
That's weird because the script's interface lets you change the delay to any amount you want so you can easily adjust if for some reason the timings are not right for you. Do you mean you can't get it to sync from a personal standpoint or you mean that the timing section of that legato literally doesn't work when you change the default number? If you adjust it to a crazy high number and then play a note does the delay change accordingly? Should be easy to find out if that section is working properly or not if you test it that way.
 
chizfreak said:
That's weird because the script's interface lets you change the delay to any amount you want so you can easily adjust if for some reason the timings are not right for you. Do you mean you can't get it to sync from a personal standpoint or you mean that the timing section of that legato literally doesn't work when you change the default number? If you adjust it to a crazy high number and then play a note does the delay change accordingly? Should be easy to find out if that section is working properly or not if you test it that way.
Click to expand...
Adjusting the numbers works but it never feels right. It always feels wonky and not really on time no matter what I set it to. The fast legato works flawlessly with the winds, it's just the medium legato that's weird.
 
MadLad said:
Adjusting the numbers works but it never feels right. It always feels wonky and not really on time no matter what I set it to. The fast legato works flawlessly with the winds, it's just the medium legato that's weird.
Click to expand...
You could try the VDC ksp just for CSW and see if you get a different result or see if it’s similar - there’s now premade settings you can import, so setup wouldn’t take much.
 
VSTHero said:
You could try the VDC ksp just for CSW and see if you get a different result or see if it’s similar - there’s now premade settings you can import, so setup wouldn’t take much.
Click to expand...
I'm fine for now. I mostly use the fast legato for winds anyway. I'm just glad I finally have a template where I have only one instance of every instrument loaded. It looks so clean and is so much more efficient having to only deal with 62 tracks instead of 140 or so lol
 
MadLad said:
I'm fine for now. I mostly use the fast legato for winds anyway. I'm just glad I finally have a template where I have only one instance of every instrument loaded. It looks so clean and is so much more efficient having to only deal with 62 tracks instead of 140 or so lol
Click to expand...
That's great! Looking forward to your next album/projects! Enjoyed the Chrono Trigger work!
 
VSTHero said:
That's great! Looking forward to your next album/projects! Enjoyed the Chrono Trigger work!
Click to expand...
Thanks! Yeah, I think for massive works like the Chrono Trigger Symphony, a stream-lined workflow with the scripts and the LookAhead modes will definitely make things a lot less frustrating.
 
@MadLad
Just out of curiosity, if you have a moment and if you use Logic, could you post a short phrase (short enough that things would fit in a screenshot), which demonstrates the wonky medium legato, with the following four things:

1. mp3 of the phrase with the metronome on
2. the piano roll
3. the event list
4. DOT's kontakt script interface

I'm 100% sure you're more experienced than me at these things, but a pair of fresh eyes might detect something. There are so many moving parts to this, that it's easy to make a misstep somewhere.
 
JM Composer said:
@MadLad
Just out of curiosity, if you have a moment and if you use Logic, could you post a short phrase (short enough that things would fit in a screenshot), which demonstrates the wonky medium legato, with the following four things:

1. mp3 of the phrase with the metronome on
2. the piano roll
3. the event list
4. DOT's kontakt script interface

I'm 100% sure you're more experienced than me at these things, but a pair of fresh eyes might detect something. There are so many moving parts to this, that it's easy to make a misstep somewhere.
Click to expand...
I actually use Cubase. I found out that even if you use the low latency mode the script still uses the value from the slow legato expressive mode. So, I adjusted it. What you hear in the render is the standard -220ms. However, I tried everything from -10ms to -400 in 10ms steps and while there was a difference it never was really on time.
 

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@MadLad
It seems like you're doing all the obvious things correctly - like making sure notes overlap, making sure all the velocities are triggering the same legato speed range, and making sure the Delay CC is on - so I'm stumped.

The one encouraging thing I hear in your example is that all the delays seem consistently behind by roughly the same amount (so it's not a random thing). So theoretically, one correct change should fix this. The mystery is what that change is.

Now you say you tried everything from -10ms to -400 in 10ms increments, which I assume you mean the negative track delay. What I would try at this point is to reset that at the standard -220ms, and instead, go to DOT's script and change the values of the "Medium" under the Low Latency Leg. field in increments of 10. And try recording some lines. Of course, make sure the Low Latency is the mode active on CSS as you record your lines (just stating the obvious).

Also, remember on DOT's script to click on the "Edit" button (it's a little button which says "Edit" and has a lock next to it). It should reveal a button called "Apply." I think you'll want to click on that every time you change the number. (I'm sure you know this already, but I mention it in the tiny chance that you didn't).

You're right, that the fact that the Medium value is the same for both Low Latency and Expressive modes is suspicious. I'd look at that number first.
 
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