HELP! Making tempo changes later on in film score session without loosing sync, region automation etc'

I have Logic Pro, but I'm not an expert on it. What i would do in your situation is score the scene in a new, separate file. If you need to have everything in one file, then export your mix or stems to wav files and place them back into the main file. Cubase has a time (grid) warp function that will solve this issue.

I have done this many times in Cakewalk over the years and it probably had the same capabilities as Logic Pro. There are many ways to approach this issue. Besides the above mentioned solution try this:

1) create a sync "pop" at the point where I know the music cues are good, make note of that SYMPTE frame number, then move all the good music cues back maybe 100 measures (maybe less). Just get them safely out of the way.
2) Re-score the section in question.
3) Delete all the space until the sync "pop" sits in the exact frame its suppose to. After checking sync, delete the sync pop.
4) Mix down the score, send it in along with my invoice and say ....Thank you very much.


If Logic Pro can't move tempos then maybe copy the tempo changes at their SYMPTE frame numbers and manually type them back in. I always seem to loose some Midi CC numbers so make sure those don't get lost. I like to create reels so that situations like this don't become overwhelming.

Jimbo 88 said:

I have Logic Pro, but I'm not an expert on it. What i would do in your situation is score the scene in a new, separate file. If you need to have everything in one file, then export your mix or stems to wav files and place them back into the main file. Cubase has a time (grid) warp function that will solve this issue.

I have done this many times in Cakewalk over the years and it probably had the same capabilities as Logic Pro. There are many ways to approach this issue. Besides the above mentioned solution try this:

1) create a sync "pop" at the point where I know the music cues are good, make note of that SYMPTE frame number, then move all the good music cues back maybe 100 measures (maybe less). Just get them safely out of the way.
2) Re-score the section in question.
3) Delete all the space until the sync "pop" sits in the exact frame its suppose to. After checking sync, delete the sync pop.
4) Mix down the score, send it in along with my invoice and say ....Thank you very much.


If Logic Pro can't move tempos then maybe copy the tempo changes at their SYMPTE frame numbers and manually type them back in. I always seem to loose some Midi CC numbers so make sure those don't get lost. I like to create reels so that situations like this don't become overwhelming.

Click to expand...

OP whilst this is a good workaround, you don’t need to do this if you don’t want to.

I’m no Logic guru but I can change tempo multiple times within a cue and not have any of the issues you’ve mentioned. Hopefully a Logic wiz will be along shortly and know what the issue is. The fact you mention automation not moving within the midi region makes me think you have some deeply buried tickbox checked somewhere.

Hi,
I've been in similar situations lots of times, and I'm using an old school approach that has served me for many years...

I work on a tv series and often times I get a non-picture-lock version beforehand, so have a little more time to work on it than if I had to wait for the final version.
Luckily enough the final cut is not so very different from the rough version but there are differences.

I have between 30 and 50 cues per show, so I do this:

I have one Logic Pro session per show with a varying template of about 500 Tracks, mostly Midi instrument tracks, automation tracks, aux returns, etc

For every cue, I create a marker that starts 4 beats - depending on the time signature - before the downbeat. In that count in bar - a remnant of the times when there were actual musicians on that cue who needed a count off (lol, nowadays...) - I put in all the automation info (mostly controllers).
In the marker I write the cue title and - most important! - the time code (smpte start time) and the tempo of the cue.
When I'm done with the show and I want to change the tempo of, say, M15 (or even insert ritardandos, etc.) then obviously all the cues after M15 are going to be out of sync. But since I noted the start time of M16 I'm safe:
if the tempo change in M15 was small it might only be necessary to insert another tempo change after M15 and fiddle with it until the marker of M16 lines up with the noted start time of M16.

If the tempo change in M15 was drastic, it might be necessary to insert or cut time via the Logic Pro command to make M16 line up again - without having to insert a ridiculous tempo change like 2478 or 12 bpm (remember, on a directors whim or your own you might have to insert another cue M15a between M15 and M16 - this is easier when you have a rather reasonable tempo between M15 and M16).

This might mess up the time signatures down the road - sometimes. I have yet to find the logic in this, pun intended...
The same thing applies when you've worked on a film work print and then you get the picture lock. Fortunately in my case they change the film only in the range of a few seconds. When they exchange or swap or cut scenes though then you are up shit creek...but it is still manageable.

I don't use the Smpte Lock because I stay in MIDI all the time (until I master) and any tempo change would completely destroy the bar line/grid position down the line and make the whole score unmanageable.

In a nut shell: to have noted the start time code of every cue has saved my behind lots of times...

I made a reply to a thread about how to align a Logic Pro smpte locked marker by using tempo changes. There’s no need to fiddle around to get close, you can get numerically exact to line up your marker ( and the resulting cue that comes after that marker ) with the desired location when changes occurr prior, such as tempo changes etc.

The issue with inserting tempo changes is that there can be glitches to time based effects, especially delays if they are set to sync to tempo. You’ll get the unwanted artifacts of the delay time getting changed. One of the best way to avoid all this is to have separate projects for each cue if possible. This can simplify your life when big changes to timeline occur.

Barring that, say you were silly or brave enough to champion doing the score in one project, you can use signature changes to avoid big tempo changes. For example, if you need to shorten the time to the next cue, and you are in 4/4, make a bar 3/4 at the end of previous cue, if the 3rd beat falls on or near where you want your next 1. Then after the 3/4, insert a new 4/4. You might still need to make a small tempo change leading up to the new 4/4. In the same way, upping the resolution, say inserting 3/8 can get you there, or even 3/16. It wouldn’t be what you’d do to engrave to live players, but in the daw, it can help avoid large tempo events and any unwanted artifacts to effects etc.

The other thing you can do is render out the audio in later sections and smpte lock them, then make the changes to earlier sections. Or you could always save as a new project so you can split the cues out.

There was a time in previous versions of Logic where you could convert automation to midi events, and smpte lock them. This was a great hidden feature since you could input regular automation using controllers, convert it and manipulate it as midi. Since the new ‘improved’ region and track based automation schema, this feature has been removed, to the best of my knowledge.

One final thought. Not my place to ask, but slight tempo changes are usually for utility reasons, are you trying to adjust the tempo to make something fit ? Can you keep the tempo and find a way to make the music work otherwise ? Did you write something that can’t be edited, ie has a strong musical cadence or needs to resolve within a faster or slower time frame now ? I find even really drastic musical edits can work if the music matches the picture in situations where the music is very literally hitting hit points. Like trailing out an extra bar when fading out, or sometimes pausing a half bar to pick up again under the narrator, things like that can go completely unnoticed if it appears to marry to dialog/images. Again, maybe not my place to suggest, but just a thought. Music is very malleable that way.

dgburns said:

I made a reply to a thread about how to align a Logic Pro smpte locked marker by using tempo changes. There’s no need to fiddle around to get close, you can get numerically exact to line up your marker ( and the resulting cue that comes after that marker ) with the desired location when changes occurr prior, such as tempo changes etc.

The issue with inserting tempo changes is that there can be glitches to time based effects, especially delays if they are set to sync to tempo. You’ll get the unwanted artifacts of the delay time getting changed. One of the best way to avoid all this is to have separate projects for each cue if possible. This can simplify your life when big changes to timeline occur.

Click to expand...

I haven't read your thread about the smpte locked markers but the "fiddling around" is a matter of seconds until the right downbeat is hit...on the dot and not close...

Regarding time base effects: of course the tempo changes you insert to arrive at the next cue at the right time must be inserted outside of any musical cue to avoid that.

About the silliness of having the whole score in one project: there certainly have been times when the whole automation went crazy in Logic but for me, these times are long gone.
The thought of having one cue per project feels so awkward to me. The loading times alone - though fast these days - would drive me crazy, copying among cues would be a nightmare...

I work in "high profile comedy" and this approach has served me very well for timing the music as exact as the genre demands..and the deadlines demand...

munician said:

I haven't read your thread about the smpte locked markers but the "fiddling around" is a matter of seconds until the right downbeat is hit...on the dot and not close...

Regarding time base effects: of course the tempo changes you insert to arrive at the next cue at the right time must be inserted outside of any musical cue to avoid that.

About the silliness of having the whole score in one project: there certainly have been times when the whole automation went crazy in Logic but for me, these times are long gone.
The thought of having one cue per project feels so awkward to me. The loading times alone - though fast these days - would drive me crazy, copying among cues would be a nightmare...

I work in "high profile comedy" and this approach has served me very well for timing the music as exact as the genre demands..and the deadlines demand...

Click to expand...

So this is our task, moving the cue up to the green marker. Precisely and by the smpte numbers by the editor, via edl list. We are originally at 10 00 09 23, but we want to go to 10 00 08 16 as per the second pic with playhead parked at green marker.




So we open the list editor and copy the exact timecode of the green marker for the tempo event that falls on the bar 14, our current cue start.



This results in the cue start moving to that timecode, and Logic adjusts the previous tempo event to make bar 14 fall exactly, numerically to the new desired start time. The green marker is sitting under, we just don't see it. Of course this can yield some pretty drastic tempo changes, so it's not always ideal if you need a count in.



The other alternative is to enter a 1/4 bar at bar 13 enter a new 4/4 at bar 14, and make the green marker hit bar 14, which results in a much smaller preceeding tempo adjustment. in this case we need to move the midi/audio that is now sitting at bar 14 beat 3 up to bar 14 beat 1 since we are effectively moving the start time up here. But we can move the stuff up since the musical grid lines up. The timecode resolve is now precise and exact.

It just shows to go ya..There are many ways to skin a cat. I've use all the above and one point or another.