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[New Woodwinds] Update: New GUI Teaser

Features you'd like MOST

  • Total voters
    81
No bread&butter flagship woodwinds with a standard set of articulations, we have enough options already.

Ensembles and Soloists with special instruments, playing techniques and tones would be very interesting. For example mixed ensembles with combinations of world and orchestral instruments recorded together for special blends with recorded ornaments and textures. Often I layer such instruments, but there are not a lot of libraries with unique blends recorded together. Basically anything that sounds fresh and evocative.
 
crutos1 said:
I'll be in the minority here, but since Santa's asking...

I'd love a 'breathy woodwind' legato library. An 'at the edge of quietness' for woodwinds, if you will. I love the pp breathiness of the BDT libraries, specifically with the saxes. Having that sound with legato and shorts would be a match made in Heaven. I can do something like that already with SWAM woodwinds, but the non-modeled, performance-based sample library with this mindset is my dream library.
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I'd like that a lot!
 
1. Soloists who can stand out in a soloistic context and also work well when combined to form an ensemble.
2. Recorded in a decent size hall (I don't believe woodwinds can sound good in smaller settings).
3. Playable runs.
4. Trills recorded at multiple speeds and over multiple intervals....
5. A vast range of dynamic layers and RRs with smooth crossfades.
6. Regular library updates and improvements.
 
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Auddict said:
Fair point, there don't seem to be too many of these around!


Could you elaborate a bit on what you meant by "hyper realistic legatos" vs "playable" ones? :)


Great suggestions! We're looking at orchestral for now, but I do love the Duduk sound. Perhaps a future library
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Definitely, similar to what Chris was referring to I believe there’s two legato philosophies at play for most libraries; making it sound as realistic as possible or having it be very responsive during playing via midi controller.

For realistic sounding legato that I really find myself and many others going to the most frequently tend to have much longer legato samples with high delay such as 180ms to 250ms (really only CSW, Audio Imperia WW, with the latter having only 1 expressive dynamic layer which while sounds great in the right context, can be limiting) and use a [sustain, legato into long sustain] model which tend to sound much organic than the traditional [sustain, legato, sustain] which has two transition “points” per legato that usually makes for more phasing and vibrato XF concerns. I know some pros don’t care for this diminishing returns of legato realism because for them it’s all about good enough after one round of keyboard play in which I get, gigs need to be done and money needs to be made, but hey in that case there’s already plenty of nice playable libs on the market already for you to enjoy such as the old HWW (incredibly playable Opus or not), SSW, the list goes on much longer.

I’m not a sample library developer so I have no idea how this would apply to a release but having solo legatos that work seamlessly with vibrato sustains especially in WW where imo vibrato is used in more contexts vs NV is really important. I have used many WW libraries where the NV legato sounds great but as soon as I switch to vibrato the phasing becomes immediately apparently and sounds more like 2/3 oboes rather a solo instrument. One of the most disappointing WW libraries I own is the Spitfire Studio Woodwinds pro release which while having a great setup on paper for a dry studio sound, the legato samples are shorter than a midget after a haircut and the phasing between legato vib sustain samples is so apparent that I have never used them in a project that requires woodwinds to be actually heard. I’m assuming in those situations you have legatos that were recorded NV and somehow patched into vib sustain samples which are not convincing at all.

Anyways, thanks for gathering user opinions and wants. I really appreciate this independent approach that you guys are taking with the likes of Pulse Audio vs. Some very large developers that keep rehashing the same stuff but with features no one really cares about + 25 mic positions including spill mics from the backstage bathrooms with 2 (1 filtered) dynamic layers across the board lol
 
What I’m always looking for in woodwinds is extreme playability and patches that are able to play legatos, longs, accented longs, shorts, trills and runs all within one patch. And that is as quick and responsive as possible. Spitfires performance legatos in BBCSO and the updated flute patch in SSW are great examples of this playability. :)
 
Shorts with a LOT of dynamic layers, round robins and different lengths. Preferably dry or at least with a great dryish close mic sound, without too much harsh reflections.
 
Auddict said:
Out of interest, how many RR would you like, and what sort of flexibility do you feel you're lacking so we can try to top that too
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At least enough to make them not stick out if you use it two times in a row 😅 maybe 4-5?
And not just septuplets up and down, but more ways to build a run maybe. I like the run builder from OT, where you can build your run, but it often takes a while if they are more complex.
 
Ok, regarding what I would like personally...

+1 on the super low dynamic stuff. I know that's really difficult to do well with woodwinds, but it's something I'm always wanting. Interesting sustains with unique attacks. Maybe several attack types.

Regarding legato, I'd say don't bother unless it's REALLY good. Obviously, legatos are important for woodwinds but if it's not better than the Berlin Woodwinds Solists libs or embertone or the other stuff that is out there then I'm not going to bother with it. However, if the legatos are solid but it's a smaller footprint library that is way cheaper than the classic WW offerings, I can see a market for that. But I'd rather you put your recording time and budget towards more attack and sustain types than a billion layers of legato transitions that are super hard to get right. But that's just me.

But what I think I really want is more tonal FX stuff. My WW workhorse needs are covered. The 8dio CAGE WW FX are great but I want more loose, random stuff that is a little more tonally usable. Maybe an ensemble making random notes rhythm patterns but for a single note. That kind of stuff.

Another patch type that I want (though to be honest, I'm not sure how well this work work for brass or winds) is something like the blurred spiccato patches from Berlin Strings. They are insanely useful for layering (I layer them at a low volume with almost every single short strings line). I would probably use these the same way for woodwinds - have a quiet layer of blurred/messy woodwind ensemble patch under a clearer patch carrying about 75% of the sound.

So like, some Wild and Untamed winds. The Wild Winds. Wildwinds. (I get royalty shares if you use that for the product name. ;P )
 
Oh, also, regarding dynamic layers. I find solo winds usually suffer thanks to crossfading of dynamic layers in a way that ensemble instruments don't. Even the best crossfading fails to address the issue of doubling. So for solo winds I'd suggest a single dynamic layer with the timbre changes simulated using some simple EQ, etc., modeling. I think the results are infinitely better that way. People get hung up on dynamic layers, but for some instruments it's a hindrance rather than an asset.

Just my two cents.
 
OK so what we've got so far are some fantastic suggestions. Listing them below:

Many of you have had enough of standard libraries and at least want MORE than that - noted!

Ensembles AND soloists

Special instruments

Special techniques/tones

Mixed ensembles with traditional/world combinations

Run patches

High RR numbers

Woodwind FX

Hyper realistic legatos vs playable ones

Adjustable mechanical/finger noises and breath sounds

Many mic perspectives, ranging from dry to distant and reverberant

Many dynamic layers (4/5)

An EXTREME quiet dynamic layer, breathy sound

Trills at multiple speeds and intervals

Longs with accents at start

Different lengths of shorts

These are some fantastic suggestions, keep them coming. We are considering all of the above.
 
Please try to make playable, realistic solo woodwinds, especially flute, oboe and English horn.
I know there are some decent options on the market, but a higher level of realism can always be aimed for.

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is vibrato.
For solo woodwinds, I like to have the option of nonvibrato or vibrato, but both being actual samples, and not scripted. Scripted vibrato always sounds robotic.

If you can have an intelligent solo instrument that analyses the midi and will automatically choose vibrato for longer notes and non vibrato for shorter midi, it will give a more natural performance.

Also, the vibrato samples need a few round robins, as every note played by a human is unique.

3 dynamic layers would be plenty.
Berlin Woodwinds only has 1 dynamic layer I believe.

The difficulty is creating a smooth transition between layers without phasing. Phase alignment destroys the timbre, so please don't do that.

With 8DIO intimate woodwinds, there are 3 dynamic layers, but the transition between them is obvious and unnatural.

Perhaps modelling rather than sampling is the best solution here, but I don't own SWAM or similar products as they are too expensive and I don't have or want a breath controller.
 
no real contribution, but wanted to say that the master solo woodwinds are firmly in my orchestral template, and whatever you'll come up with will surely be something highly valuable. I hear in your samples a striving for passion rather hard to find elsewhere. I mean actual passion in the samples...
 
Evans said:
It stinks to have something that sounds interesting that can't sit in a mix because of wild mismatches in depth/stereo width/etc. in a limited selection of mics. Sure, there are sometimes workarounds, but the more effort I have to put in on the very basics, the less likely I will be to load it up.
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robgb said:
Also, close STEREO mics, so that some of us can create our own room around it.
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There is another developer whose (some of their) libraries have this problem, especially on the close stereo mic: each note you play places the instrument on another position in the stereo field. As this sounds strange, I don't use these libraries anymore.

Happily the Master Solo Woodwinds Bundle of Auddict does not has this problem.
And hopefully, your planned new woodwinds library neither.

Evans said:
An example (without naming a specific VI product) is when you've got loud key clacks in a woodwind but none of the mics are far enough away to simmer them down. Just shoving back via MIR or something doesn't ever really kill those off.
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I agree. Click sounds should be optional, possibly by switching to another microphone.
 
Here's my perspective: I have a lot of woodwind libraries from many high-end companies. For the type of scoring I do, I often rely on the old Dan Dean Solo Woodwinds in Logic's Sampler to get my ideas across. Why? As a brasswind player with lots of performing experience, I need a few things that most of these more modern ww libraries running in Kontakt/Play/OPUS/Sine don't have - or have poorly-implimented:

1. Control over the "start" of the each sample (because so many samples have uneven attacks).
2. Fully editable, well-implimented ADSR (so I can shape the attack and release in certain situations).
3. Bone dry, consistent sound quality up and down every articulation across the entire library.
4. Super fast reliable load time - I'm not waiting long to get to the writing.
5. 2 Programmable low-dB-per-octave (very natural sounding) filters that can be mapped to ADSR or mod wheel (or any controller). So I can simulate how overtones respond to velocity of breath in all wind instruments.
6. Easily re-mappable zones across the keymap (if I don't like a particular sample, I can stretch a neighboring sample to fill the zone).
7. The ability to stretch the keymap lower and/or higher than the patch allows (great for situations where staying true to the natural range is not desired, either momentarily or across a whole track).

I guess it's more than a few!

The reason for most of this is that I care more about the "shaping" (tonally and dynamically) of the notes I'm programming to fit the musical passage than I care about having a million round-robins, mic positions etc.

The layperson listening to the music is not going to pick up on some of these details that most contemporary libraries are focusing on - but the details of a clean consistent attack, and ADSR shaping of each note (sometimes accomplished with cc's controlling relative volume/natural filtering) is impactful. For example I often use the ADSR to make staccato notes "more" staccato - in real world music making a staccato length can change quite dynamically given the tempo at play, nature of the music etc.

Just my two cents! I like control over the samples I'm using.

** I will say the one modern feature I really miss in the Dan Dean or any Sampler library is true legato.
 
Auddict said:
Keeping this short and sweet! We are creating a new and highly extensive Woodwinds library. This will potentially include a range of highly rare, extended instruments, and we've partnered with a very special set of players, whom we will reveal later on! Very exciting stuff.

Anyway, to the point! We want to know what YOU want from it. No request is too silly; we're open to anything. What kinds of articulations, sounds, mic positions, etc., are you interested in? Tell us, and we will see what we can do!
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I love your MSW product. It has some amazing legatos and it would be fantastic to have an English Horn and other instruments to pack it out.

But with the greatest respect, I'd love you to keep updating your old products first before turning your attention to anything new. I wrote in about a few bugs in the woodwinds years ago, and nothing has ever been updated in them.

Additionally your website doesn't smack of great QC. The woodwinds page still uses a copy/paste header from Angel Strings which has been there for years, and the Angel Strings page has had 5 coming soon videos since the product was launched... in April 2018... It's quite worrying when a developer hasn't updated their own website in almost 6 years, don't you think?? I'd start there, and with updating the bugs in old products, before moving onto new products.

Very best,
Oliver
 

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ChrisSiuMusic said:
I believe 'hyper realistic' is referring to as realistic/natural of a sound as you can get with legato, even if it sacrifices some playability or introduces some delay.
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As long as this is 'as well as' playable (non-delay) legato; personally not a fan of libs that introduce latency and the work-around solutions required.
 
Jay EM said:
As long as this is 'as well as' playable (non-delay) legato; personally not a fan of libs that introduce latency and the work-around solutions required.
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We could certainly think about creating a realistic legato with latency which can be adjusted/cut off to make it more responsive, then you get the best of both worlds?
 
Tim Clarke said:
Here's my perspective: I have a lot of woodwind libraries from many high-end companies. For the type of scoring I do, I often rely on the old Dan Dean Solo Woodwinds in Logic's Sampler to get my ideas across. Why? As a brasswind player with lots of performing experience, I need a few things that most of these more modern ww libraries running in Kontakt/Play/OPUS/Sine don't have - or have poorly-implimented:

1. Control over the "start" of the each sample (because so many samples have uneven attacks).
2. Fully editable, well-implimented ADSR (so I can shape the attack and release in certain situations).
3. Bone dry, consistent sound quality up and down every articulation across the entire library.
4. Super fast reliable load time - I'm not waiting long to get to the writing.
5. 2 Programmable low-dB-per-octave (very natural sounding) filters that can be mapped to ADSR or mod wheel (or any controller). So I can simulate how overtones respond to velocity of breath in all wind instruments.
6. Easily re-mappable zones across the keymap (if I don't like a particular sample, I can stretch a neighboring sample to fill the zone).
7. The ability to stretch the keymap lower and/or higher than the patch allows (great for situations where staying true to the natural range is not desired, either momentarily or across a whole track).

I guess it's more than a few!

The reason for most of this is that I care more about the "shaping" (tonally and dynamically) of the notes I'm programming to fit the musical passage than I care about having a million round-robins, mic positions etc.

The layperson listening to the music is not going to pick up on some of these details that most contemporary libraries are focusing on - but the details of a clean consistent attack, and ADSR shaping of each note (sometimes accomplished with cc's controlling relative volume/natural filtering) is impactful. For example I often use the ADSR to make staccato notes "more" staccato - in real world music making a staccato length can change quite dynamically given the tempo at play, nature of the music etc.

Just my two cents! I like control over the samples I'm using.

** I will say the one modern feature I really miss in the Dan Dean or any Sampler library is true legato.
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These are some very interesting ideas - and attack controls seems to be a popular one too. The idea of stretching the range is a very interesting one too.
 
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