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Legato Update for Berlin Strings (2024)

I find it very interesting how low-key this is - a single email to owners (of only the full library), not any videos, demos, or even a single user noodle after 36 hours. Not what I would have expected.
 
JacksonTree said:
I find it very interesting how low-key this is - a single email to owners (of only the full library), not any videos, demos, or even a single user noodle after 36 hours. Not what I would have expected.
Click to expand...
It's not unheard of for OT, if memory serves. I believe there have been at least a couple of times where a user would notice updates loaded in SINE days before OT would post. I do also remember talk from way back about doing staggered or soft releases, something similar, for various practical reasons.
 
had a play with the vln1 and cello. It’s a VERY solid update. Still not competing with CSS legato but pretty close and sounds great. It is generally more playable than CSS (less delay) which I can see as a major plus for many.
I feel like the dynamic shape of cc1 from zero to 64 is not perfect still… the quiet end could be quieter still for more realism imo. Turning on soft low layer helps this, and I realize cc11 can be used to extend the shape but I wish they were a little more dynamic out of the gate. I think the tone is generally more beautiful than CSS but programming still not quite at the level.
But again solid update and I think I will make more use of these as a result!
I appreciate that OT is continuing to improve these collections, they are superb recordings. I hope the other libs get similar attention.
 
studioj said:
had a play with the vln1 and cello. It’s a VERY solid update. Still not competing with CSS legato but pretty close and sounds great. It is generally more playable than CSS (less delay) which I can see as a major plus for many.
I feel like the dynamic shape of cc1 from zero to 64 is not perfect still… the quiet end could be quieter still for more realism imo. Turning on soft low layer helps this, and I realize cc11 can be used to extend the shape but I wish they were a little more dynamic out of the gate. I think the tone is generally more beautiful than CSS but programming still not quite at the level.
But again solid update and I think I will make more use of these as a result!
I appreciate that OT is continuing to improve these collections, they are superb recordings. I hope the other libs get similar attention.
Click to expand...
You can always increase the volume range slider on the dynamics tab to make the quiet layers quieter. I think most articulations were only recorded down to p in Berlin Strings and OT typically leaves the settings close to the “natural” volume of the samples.
 
Trash Panda said:
You can always increase the volume range slider on the dynamics tab to make the quiet layers quieter. I think most articulations were only recorded down to p in Berlin Strings and OT typically leaves the settings close to the “natural” volume of the samples.
Click to expand...
Ah yes, thanks for tip!
 
First, violins alone. Then 2 looong notes of violas to check vibrato. Then cellos. Then the whole string section. Different BPM as well, just to see how vibrato/longs/transitions work.

1. Berlin Strings (update):

View attachment 01 - BS.mp3

2. Similar section sizes, Spitfire Appassionata:

View attachment 02 - SAS.mp3

3. And because everyone loves to compare to CSS, here you go with the best string legato ever programmed:

View attachment 03 - CSS.mp3


EDIT: I really, really don't like most of OT baked in on/off vibrato. This one included.
 
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Nico Schuele said:
3. And because everyone loves to compare to CSS, even if it doesn't make much sense considering the section sizes, here you go with the best string legato ever programmed:
Click to expand...
The section sizes aren’t that different. CSS only has two more players max per section, mostly one.
 
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Trash Panda said:
You can always increase the volume range slider on the dynamics tab to make the quiet layers quieter. I think most articulations were only recorded down to p in Berlin Strings and OT typically leaves the settings close to the “natural” volume of the samples.
Click to expand...
For Violins 1 the regular sustains, the Sustan soft (which has one more dynamic layers, mp) Portato,Blurred,Spiccato all have a pp layer (according to OT) and tremolo and trills have ppp.
But yeah, for other instruments the more common lower layer is p (but there are also a couple of exceptions).
 
Nico Schuele said:
First, violins alone. Then 2 looong notes of violas to check vibrato. Then cellos. Then the whole string section. Different BPM as well, just to see how vibrato/longs/transitions work.

1. Berlin Strings (update):

View attachment 01 - BS.mp3

2. Similar section sizes, Spitfire Appassionata:

View attachment 02 - SAS.mp3

3. And because everyone loves to compare to CSS, even if it doesn't make much sense considering the section sizes, here you go with the best string legato ever programmed:

View attachment 03 - CSS.mp3


EDIT: I really, really don't like most of OT baked in on/off vibrato. This one included.
Click to expand...
Although one can debate about tone and vibrato all day, when it comes to legato quality CSS is the clear winner here. Appassionato is close but it's not as natural with the transitions. Berlin is hugely improved from how it used to be, but there are still some awkward transitions here that simply sound artificial when examined next to CSS.

Of course, different members of this forum can disagree about which has the nicest tone, and whether the legato transitions really matter much to listeners. But if we're only talking about the legato, this particular comparison has a very clear winner and a clear loser.
 
I don't own Berlin Strings yet, but like the tone.
I was apprehensive of buying them when I heard of their weakness in legato.

But now with this update, it seems they have fixed their biggest weakness.

Can any owners tell me if this is now a near perfect library,
Or are there other significant flaws, such as noises in the samples?
 
Nico Schuele said:
First, violins alone. Then 2 looong notes of violas to check vibrato. Then cellos. Then the whole string section. Different BPM as well, just to see how vibrato/longs/transitions work.

1. Berlin Strings (update):

View attachment 01 - BS.mp3
Click to expand...
Just out of curiosity, are you using the fingered or slurred legato here? Additionally, are you using the regular vibrato or molto (str) vibrato? It does make a marked difference on what you choose if you're going to compare it to CSS.
 
Nico Schuele said:
EDIT: I really, really don't like most of OT baked in on/off vibrato. This one included.
Click to expand...
Have you tried using a polymap to crossfade?

I frame it as a question because the styles of playing are so different between vibrato types. I can't imagine trying to make a good crossfade from non-vibrato all the way to expressive. But molto to expressive, or romantic/progressive/normal to molto, generally works well
 
It is great that this update has been done, and OT should be thanked,
but it has been years since this library was released.
Is there any more work that needs to be done to improve it?

Isn't that a legitimate question for an expensive product for which there is no demo, returns, or resale?
 
CatComposer said:
It is great that this update has been done, and OT should be thanked,
but it has been years since this library was released.
Is there any more work that needs to be done to improve it?

Isn't that a legitimate question for an expensive product for which there is no demo, returns, or resale?
Click to expand...
I was referring specifically about the noise in the samples being objectively categorized as a flaw.

See this thread for context: https://vi-control.net/community/th...s-main-collections.145976/page-4#post-5451347
 
Trash Panda said:
I was referring specifically about the noise in the samples being objectively categorized as a flaw.

See this thread for context: https://vi-control.net/community/th...s-main-collections.145976/page-4#post-5451347
Click to expand...
Yes, I read much of that thread before which did make me apprehensive about buying BS.
However, now that there is this wonderful legato update, it's very encouraging to see that OT is still improving its products.

And so the question remains: Is more work needed?
Is this library finished, or will there be further updates?

From that thread, there were insufficient examples of noise uploaded for me to determine whether the grumpy customer's concerns were well founded.
Also, I didn't find any conclusive response from other owners of the library confirming or denying that noise is a significant problem in the samples.

If there was a significant noise issue in the samples, this might be improved with RX10 noise removal.
I believe Cinesamples did this with their products, which is commendable.

So my question includes the potential noise problems, but is broader.
Are there other weaknesses with the library that can potentially be fixed in a future update.

I thought this forum would be the ideal place for this kind of information to be shared for the benefit of prospective customers, and that as a community we are here to help each other.
 
Trash Panda said:
Just out of curiosity, are you using the fingered or slurred legato here? Additionally, are you using the regular vibrato or molto (str) vibrato? It does make a marked difference on what you choose if you're going to compare it to CSS.
Click to expand...

I use a combination of both as you can hear in the transitions. I've adapted the CCs and the programming for each example too. The vibrato is the regular one as the molto vib sounds like a cheap plugin slapped over a sustain (constant heavy vib that doesn't move, doesn't progress right from the start of the note.)

For CSS, I automated CC2 (vib control) a little bit because well... ...you can! (And if you want to do it the easy way, check out @Land of Missing Parts plugin Auto Vib.) The tone of Berlin Strings is fantastic but the programming of it is a bit dated and my poor editing skills give away the MIDI too fast. I need something more natural, musical and user friendly out of the box like CSS and Con Motto in my daily work.

Casiquire said:
Have you tried using a polymap to crossfade?
Click to expand...

Actually no, I didn't. I've had the same thinking as you did: the difference is so big, I'm not sure transitionning from one to the other would work. I will try it when I have a bit more time though. I really want a progressive vibrato, from flat to expressive as this would mimic best what happens in a live setting.
 
Nico Schuele said:
I use a combination of both as you can hear in the transitions. I've adapted the CCs and the programming for each example too. The vibrato is the regular one as the molto vib sounds like a cheap plugin slapped over a sustain (constant heavy vib that doesn't move, doesn't progress right from the start of the note.)

For CSS, I automated CC2 (vib control) a little bit because well... ...you can! (And if you want to do it the easy way, check out @Land of Missing Parts plugin Auto Vib.) The tone of Berlin Strings is fantastic but the programming of it is a bit dated and my poor editing skills give away the MIDI too fast. I need something more natural, musical and user friendly out of the box like CSS and Con Motto in my daily work.



Actually no, I didn't. I've had the same thinking as you did: the difference is so big, I'm not sure transitionning from one to the other would work. I will try it when I have a bit more time though. I really want a progressive vibrato, from flat to expressive as this would mimic best what happens in a live setting.
Click to expand...
Here's a preset for each section with Polymaps set up for X-fade via CC20. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts (or anyone else who hasn't tried this method) after giving them a whirl. I'm hoping the supposed SINE update that's been mentioned as coming out this quarter will make this less of a PITA or be the default way this works when it lands.
 

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