The Variable Delay Compensator (v1.6): Another multi script for CSS...but for any others, too!

Interesting, but also good news. Do you use Logic? If so, I send you examples of when it occurs when I have a bit more time. I'll also double check my articulation maps - my Dorico ones included the keyswitch exclusion data but I very likely forgot to when setting up Logic ones, which might be why I didn't recall this being an issue before. As usual, it is very likely to be user error!

VSTHero said:

Interesting, but also good news. Do you use Logic? If so, I send you examples of when it occurs when I have a bit more time. I'll also double check my articulation maps - my Dorico ones included the keyswitch exclusion data but I very likely forgot to when setting up Logic ones, which might be why I didn't recall this being an issue before. As usual, it is very likely to be user error!

Click to expand...

I don't have Logic, sorry (Windows user here). I've got Reaper, Cubase, S1, Dorico, and Cakewalk as far as DAWs go.

I just tried again in Logic and Cubase. I just use standard Art Conductor articulation sets / expression maps (they use CC58 and G#0). Using a mixture of longs, shorts, tremolos, expressive legato, with multiple speeds in a line, the script is not keeping things on time. I switched only the KSP to use another delay script (based on Ihnoc's) and everything hits exactly where it is supposed to. Maybe there is a setup issue on my end, but if I'm honest, the manual and UI is very complex and hard to follow compared to some other older scripts.

ALittleNightMusic said:

I just tried again in Logic and Cubase. I just use standard Art Conductor articulation sets / expression maps (they use CC58 and G#0). Using a mixture of longs, shorts, tremolos, expressive legato, with multiple speeds in a line, the script is not keeping things on time. I switched only the KSP to use another delay script (based on Ihnoc's) and everything hits exactly where it is supposed to.

Click to expand...

Shot in the dark here: have we tried toggling the "Original Note-Length Timing" feature in the Advanced Options page? Another user who had timing issues needed this on because their overlaps were lengthy and the monophonic algorithm of the VDC doesn't like that so much. (On that note, minimizing the amount of overlap could help as well.)

To investigate further or to give more detailed advice, I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific describing your timing issues.

ALittleNightMusic said:

Maybe there is a setup issue on my end, but if I'm honest, the manual and UI is very complex and hard to follow compared to some other older scripts.

Click to expand...

The complexity is due to the generalized solution that the VDC provides. It's not just for CSS, but for any libraries with inconsistent lag, so it has all the extra settings to handle other articulations sets and timing patterns. It's the necessary evil to achieve the goal here, but I can understand if feels a bit overkill. I tried to make this plug-in-play for CSS by providing the preset, but external factors still have to line up for that preset to "just work".

As you've probably learned, I and others are willing to help if you've got the questions and the time (I'm open to PMs as well). Not to mention that I do want the VDC to work, so resolving issues that folks have is the only way it improves. No pressure, of course. If other scripts are working for you, then I can't sell you this one, haha.

First of all, thanks to @kpmuzik for creating this excellent tool; it's made working with the CS-series much easier for me.

I've only been using VDC for a few weeks, but the provided presets for CSS and CSSS seem to be working perfectly. My DAW is DP connected to VEP, and I'm using Babylon Waves. I haven't modified any of the CS presets or BW Articulation maps.

My issue is with CSB. All of the articulations work correctly *except* the legato sustains, which seem to be about 100ms late (I have to manually advance the overlapped notes by that much to get them to play in time with everything else). I've found this to be the case with all of the brass presets, and can't figure out why.

chuckbutler said:

First of all, thanks to @kpmuzik for creating this excellent tool; it's made working with the CS-series much easier for me.

I've only been using VDC for a few weeks, but the provided presets for CSS and CSSS seem to be working perfectly. My DAW is DP connected to VEP, and I'm using Babylon Waves. I haven't modified any of the CS presets or BW Articulation maps.

My issue is with CSB. All of the articulations work correctly *except* the legato sustains, which seem to be about 100ms late (I have to manually advance the overlapped notes by that much to get them to play in time with everything else). I've found this to be the case with all of the brass presets, and can't figure out why.

Click to expand...

You'll have to tune the preset as it's programmed for just CSS. Of course, the VDC's tunability is its "selling" feature, so you'll have to get under the hood and correct some values and settings for it to work with CSB. The manual goes over what everything does, and we answer questions regarding anything still unclear.

Actually, I just remembered @aka70 has provided some presets for CSB in this thread that could save you the work:

Actually, I just remembered @aka70 has provided some presets for CSB in this thread that could save you the work:

Click to expand...

Yep, that's what I'm using; I thought you had programmed those presets because they all include "kpmuzik" in the filename. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Anyway, the CSS and CSSS presets included in that download (all of which have "kpmuzik" in the filenames) work great; I just don't get the right legato timing with the CSB preset. But I guess this is a question for @aka70, otherwise I'll have to try to dig into the programming myself.

Double check you put the correct track delay - I've on a few occasions put the wrong one since KP's script and the aka70's use different delays.

chuckbutler said:

Yep, that's what I'm using; I thought you had programmed those presets because they all include "kpmuzik" in the filename. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Anyway, the CSS and CSSS presets included in that download (all of which have "kpmuzik" in the filenames) work great; I just don't get the right legato timing with the CSB preset. But I guess this is a question for @aka70, otherwise I'll have to try to dig into the programming myself.

Click to expand...

Hey @chuckbutler, double check if you are using the Trumpet preset.There are 2 presets in the CSB folder as I remember, trumpet is only used for trumpet and trumpets, everything else uses the other script.

Thanks a lot kpmuzik for creating this script - makes it so much easier to work with the CS series especially! My only tiny little problem is that for me it is hard to keep track of what the algorithms and conditions are actually there for after a while. Is there any possibility to maybe give these presets names - like 'LowLatLegato' - to later be able to easily identify which setting is which?

Thanks for the suggestions. Yes @aka70, I definitely imported your preset that begins "CSB_Horns..." And yes @VSTHero, I think I'm using the correct track delay for two reasons: (1) VDC publishes the required setting in the upper right corner (285ms) and (2) all the other articulations (long and short) are aligning to click perfectly. The first note of a sustain passage is also aligned correctly; it's only the subsequent overlapped legatos (in either the "medium" or "fast" velocity range) that sound late.

I've attached a screen shot that might be informative. I stopped playback during a legato phrase, so I believe the top line ("Alg 6") shows VDC's response to the last note detected. If I understand correctly, that means this note is being "delayed" by 70ms. That would be the same as manually moving the MIDI event ahead by 215ms (285ms track advance minus 70ms VDC delay = 215ms). CSB docs say that there should be 230ms latency for a "medium" legato. I'm not sure if my math is correct for how VDC works, but the overlapped legatos sound off by much more than 15ms. So I'm not sure what could be going on.

But I'll say again that the presets for CSS and CSSS are working perfectly for all articulations, so I don't know why I'm getting a different result with CSB.

hsindermann said:

Thanks a lot kpmuzik for creating this script - makes it so much easier to work with the CS series especially! My only tiny little problem is that for me it is hard to keep track of what the algorithms and conditions are actually there for after a while. Is there any possibility to maybe give these presets names - like 'LowLatLegato' - to later be able to easily identify which setting is which?

Click to expand...

Short answer: no, sorry. That's why their "labels" are literal descriptions of their configs in a sort of symbolic/numerical shorthand.

The long answer is the second half of this post:

Ah okay, got it! Then I'll create some sort of spreadsheet that lists the meaning of the individual settings in case I need them.

chuckbutler said:

Thanks for the suggestions. Yes @aka70, I definitely imported your preset that begins "CSB_Horns..." And yes @VSTHero, I think I'm using the correct track delay for two reasons: (1) VDC publishes the required setting in the upper right corner (285ms) and (2) all the other articulations (long and short) are aligning to click perfectly. The first note of a sustain passage is also aligned correctly; it's only the subsequent overlapped legatos (in either the "medium" or "fast" velocity range) that sound late.

I've attached a screen shot that might be informative. I stopped playback during a legato phrase, so I believe the top line ("Alg 6") shows VDC's response to the last note detected. If I understand correctly, that means this note is being "delayed" by 70ms. That would be the same as manually moving the MIDI event ahead by 215ms (285ms track advance minus 70ms VDC delay = 215ms). CSB docs say that there should be 230ms latency for a "medium" legato. I'm not sure if my math is correct for how VDC works, but the overlapped legatos sound off by much more than 15ms. So I'm not sure what could be going on.

But I'll say again that the presets for CSS and CSSS are working perfectly for all articulations, so I don't know why I'm getting a different result with CSB.

Click to expand...

Hey Chuck,

There's two things odd: The track delay for CSB should be the same as the longest possible delay that CSB produces - and that would be 230 ms for the legato articulation (for anything but the trumpets). So you having 285 ms instead tells me there's something incorrectly set up.
What you got there at the time of your screenshot looks as if it triggered the delay for the normal sustains instead of the delay for the legatos. I would guess you'd need to trigger both the sustain and legato switches in your articulation manager, and then program both these switches in VDC for the legato condition.

I got mine working perfectly for CSB and would share, but I doubt it would be very helpful for you, as I went a different route with VDC - I've set up my articulation manager in Reaper (Reaticulate) in a way that it is sending out different Program Changes for each of the required delays (shorts, long, different legato speeds), so that VDC only needs to react to the Program Changes and I didn't need to list all possible CCs/keyswitches again.

chuckbutler said:

Thanks for the suggestions. Yes @aka70, I definitely imported your preset that begins "CSB_Horns..." And yes @VSTHero, I think I'm using the correct track delay for two reasons: (1) VDC publishes the required setting in the upper right corner (285ms) and (2) all the other articulations (long and short) are aligning to click perfectly. The first note of a sustain passage is also aligned correctly; it's only the subsequent overlapped legatos (in either the "medium" or "fast" velocity range) that sound late.

I've attached a screen shot that might be informative. I stopped playback during a legato phrase, so I believe the top line ("Alg 6") shows VDC's response to the last note detected. If I understand correctly, that means this note is being "delayed" by 70ms. That would be the same as manually moving the MIDI event ahead by 215ms (285ms track advance minus 70ms VDC delay = 215ms). CSB docs say that there should be 230ms latency for a "medium" legato. I'm not sure if my math is correct for how VDC works, but the overlapped legatos sound off by much more than 15ms. So I'm not sure what could be going on.

But I'll say again that the presets for CSS and CSSS are working perfectly for all articulations, so I don't know why I'm getting a different result with CSB.

Click to expand...

Hey Chuck,

I just had some time to spent. It turned out the legato switch in Horns it was G#0, (CSB uses A#0) from importing the woodwind script and in the advance options the global offset was 0 (horns and trumpets). It should be 75ms to compensate and align all the libraries with a single delay -360. It should be everything ok now.

I don't use CSB that much, that's why with the mistakes.

Awesome, mystery solved!

Thank you for the super-quick fix, @aka70! CSB seems to be working perfectly now. I appreciate your effort, as well as that of @kpmuzik in creating the script. Hit me up if either of you are ever in the Philadelphia area; I'd be happy to treat you to dinner.

@kpmuzik
I thought I'd celebrate New Year's in VI-Control style by trying to get your awesome VDC script working with CSS.

But I must be doing something wrong, because I'm getting janky rhythms on a simple set of 8th notes. Here's a link to a screen recording where you can see what's happening:



The steps I took:
1. I loaded CSS violins.
2. I loaded the VDC script and imported the nka preset you created for CSS.
3. I bypassed the script to record a set of 8th notes, and I quantized it to 1/8 notes. I jiggled my fader (set to CC58) so that it would select the sustain articulation before I played the notes, and so that the VDC would register the articulation.
4. I reactivated your script, and saw 360ms on the script, and as per your manual, I set the "lead" on my track to -360ms.
5. Played it back.

Given that so many here have expressed how well VDC works with CSS, I know it's me who's the problem. Was wondering if you can help me sort this.

JM Composer said:

@kpmuzik
I thought I'd celebrate New Year's in VI-Control style by trying to get your awesome VDC script working with CSS.

But I must be doing something wrong, because I'm getting janky rhythms on a simple set of 8th notes. Here's a link to a screen recording where you can see what's happening:



The steps I took:
1. I loaded CSS violins.
2. I loaded the VDC script and imported the nka preset you created for CSS.
3. I bypassed the script to record a set of 8th notes, and I quantized it to 1/8 notes. I jiggled my fader (set to CC58) so that it would select the sustain articulation before I played the notes, and so that the VDC would register the articulation.
4. I reactivated your script, and saw 360ms on the script, and as per your manual, I set the "lead" on my track to -360ms.
5. Played it back.

Given that so many here have expressed how well VDC works with CSS, I know it's me who's the problem. Was wondering if you can help me sort this.

Click to expand...

Those lowest notes, they're overlapping too much (they're full quarter notes!). It's a known issue that if the note-offs happen too late that they'll "hold up" next note-ons (it's a limitation of the queuing system in place).

I'd reduce the amount of overlap. I think you're generally fine until the overlap exceeds crossing over more than just the next note.

What can also help is using the advanced option that reads "Original Note-Off Timing" by toggling it to "Original Note-Length Timing" as it tends to shorten notes and also reduce overlap (otherwise the VDC's act of pulling back only note-ons tends to increase overlap more than what you see in the piano roll).

The script isn't working in your video. It seems you just need to put the keyswitch in G#0 for legato to start the script