Equivalent of VIC for pop music production or songwriting?

fakemaxwell said:

I really do not see a world where after a month of a pop music forum being open, the entirety of VIC is overrun with new knuckledragging posters.

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No, it would take a lot longer than a month. I'm thinking about the health of forum long term... over the course of years.

The orchestral/trailer niche of VI-C is just a drop in the bucket compared to the vast world of bedroom EDM producers. If VI-C were to play down its specialization in orchestral/film music composition and set out a dedicated welcome mat for bedroom EDM producers, not much would change right away, but slowly more and more of them could set up camp here. Over the course of time, the forum could lose its orchestral focus and devolve into pages of "Yo check out my track, it's so lit!"

Believe me, nobody wants to find a home for traditional rock/pop/country VI music production more than I do. I just don't think VI-Control is the right place, because it apparently wasn't part of Frederick Russ's vision for this forum, and I'm doubtful Mike would want the forum to get any bigger than it already is.

Polkasound said:

No, it would take a lot longer than a month. I'm thinking about the health of forum long term... over the course of years.

The orchestral/trailer niche of VI-C is just a drop in the bucket compared to the vast world of bedroom EDM producers. If VI-C were to play down its specialization in orchestral/film music composition and set out a dedicated welcome mat for bedroom EDM producers, not much would change right away, but slowly more and more of them could set up camp here. Over the course of time, the forum could lose its orchestral focus and devolve into pages of "Yo check out my track, it's so lit!"

Believe me, nobody wants to find a home for traditional rock/pop/country VI music production more than I do. I just don't think VI-Control is the right place, because it apparently wasn't part of Frederick Russ's vision for this forum, and I'm doubtful Mike would want the forum to get any bigger than it already is.

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Perhaps I understood Mike wrong, but wasn’t he saying that if the separate forum was popular enough, it could be spun off into a whole new forum? New name and URL? Again, maybe I misunderstood him.

Reid Rosefelt said:

Perhaps I understood Mike wrong, but wasn’t he saying that if the separate forum was popular enough, it could be spun off into a whole new forum? New name and URL? Again, maybe I misunderstood him.

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I saw that, too, but that idea would only work as long as there were someone willing to run the newly spun-off forum.

I’m very pro the idea of a songwriting/production section on VI-C. Unfortunately there is the possibility of inanity, naivety and fantasy, people posting who have no idea and who could negatively impact the tone of such a section/forum.

For example, there is a FB thread run by a successful UK songwriter/producer that was set up with good intent. However, it’s attracting the very kind of people I’m talking about - you get them on PG Music forums too. There were posts recently about obscure guitar gear, someone asked for digital keyboard recommendations suitable for an infant with learning difficulties, and there have been absurd queries and comments re songs, copyright and music publishing. I realise that people have got to start somewhere though.

Polkasound said:

... and set out a dedicated welcome mat for bedroom EDM producers ...

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I think we could avoid that. I'm thinking the section would be more legit pop styles, with an emphasis on songwriting and legit production, as opposed to makin' beats. A beat making thread could still be cool, of course, but only if in service to real music.

My assumption is the participants would be the same people we already have here, so I think a lot of this takes care of itself. Well ... I think.

Polkasound said:

... and I'm doubtful Mike would want the forum to get any bigger than it already is.

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You're right, but I'm starting to think that ship sailed. I still delete a lot of threads (mostly over-posting by developers), but the vast majority of discussions are valid topics, so I think we have to live with the fact that the forum is getting busy.

Not that I want to make it worse, but I'm kinda thinking a pop section wouldn't result in that many new threads. A new Superior Drummer release doesn't warrant the same sort of attention as an OT/VSL/Spitfire release, and how many threads looking for a rhyme for Nantucket can there be? Songwriting is more of a "Just do it" thing, compared to orchestra, where extensive knowledge matters more.

Reid Rosefelt said:

Perhaps I understood Mike wrong, but wasn’t he saying that if the separate forum was popular enough, it could be spun off into a whole new forum? New name and URL? Again, maybe I misunderstood him.

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Yes, that's what I was thinking. There's both good and bad to that, since a lot of VI-C topics are also excellent pop topics, so a separate forum would suffer a bit from the split. On the positive side, though, things like SynthV could come out of hiding in a pop forum, and I imagine even here, the split would mean it could return to Latest Posts, since the discussion about it would have a different focus.

I don't really know, though, and there are a lot of things I haven't thought of, so it's really good reading everyone's thoughts. Even if we do this, it wouldn't be until January, so we can try to anticipate as many issues as possible before then.

More thoughts for anticipation:
If we go to the "musicologics" of modern Pop, then almost everything fits in Pop genre currently (BUT there is an aesthetic to be keeped to be named Pop Music). Here an excerpt from Wikipedia:

"Pop music is a genre of popular music that originated in its modern form during the mid-1950s in the United States and the United Kingdom.[4] During the 1950s and 1960s, pop music encompassed rock and roll and the youth-oriented styles it influenced. Rock and pop music remained roughly synonymous until the late 1960s, after which pop became associated with music that was more commercial, ephemeral, and accessible.

Identifying factors of pop music usually include repeated choruses and hooks, short to medium-length songs written in a basic format (often the verse–chorus structure), and rhythms or tempos that can be easily danced to. Much pop music also borrows elements from other styles such as rock, urban, dance, Latin, and country.

The terms popular music and pop music are often used interchangeably, although the former more accurately describes all music that is popular and includes many disparate styles. Although much of the music that appears on record charts is considered to be pop music, the genre is distinguished from chart music."

Diplomatic forum / subforum / thread / name ideas:
"Songwriting"
"Pop music in film scoring"
"Songwriting Production"
"Pop music Production"

But then you could argue lets have:
"Rock music Production" --> and then this genre has its aesthetics also
"Metal music Production" --> etc.
"World Music Production" --> etc.
"New Age music Production" --> etc.
"EDM Production" --> etc.

OR lets have:
VIs in Pop music production (popping questions: "how to use/mix strings in pop music?")
VIs in Rock music production
VIs in Songwriting production
etc.

(sorry if it's too much, I've had a long pause )

I think there is room for the pop genres already here, but maybe a dedicated pop room could add some variety. Lots of VI use in those styles of music for sure.

Mike Greene said:

I think we could avoid that. I'm thinking the section would be more legit pop styles, with an emphasis on songwriting and legit production, as opposed to makin' beats. A beat making thread could still be cool, of course, but only if in service to real music.

My assumption is the participants would be the same people we already have here, so I think a lot of this takes care of itself. Well ... I think.


You're right, but I'm starting to think that ship sailed. I still delete a lot of threads (mostly over-posting by developers), but the vast majority of discussions are valid topics, so I think we have to live with the fact that the forum is getting busy.

Not that I want to make it worse, but I'm kinda thinking a pop section wouldn't result in that many new threads. A new Superior Drummer release doesn't warrant the same sort of attention as an OT/VSL/Spitfire release, and how many threads looking for a rhyme for Nantucket can there be? Songwriting is more of a "Just do it" thing, compared to orchestra, where extensive knowledge matters more.


Yes, that's what I was thinking. There's both good and bad to that, since a lot of VI-C topics are also excellent pop topics, so a separate forum would suffer a bit from the split. On the positive side, though, things like SynthV could come out of hiding in a pop forum, and I imagine even here, the split would mean it could return to Latest Posts, since the discussion about it would have a different focus.

I don't really know, though, and there are a lot of things I haven't thought of, so it's really good reading everyone's thoughts. Even if we do this, it wouldn't be until January, so we can try to anticipate as many issues as possible before then.

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So I had imagined you were talking about a forum where people would feel an invitation to discuss songwriting and pop music from a more technical / craft perspective. If the rest of VI-C is "what to buy" this would be "how to use it for pop", since we already have "how to use it for orchestral". The songwriting forums out there seem to focus more on words than music, so one that focused on pop production - from charts to indie to rock to EDM - strikes me as a worthwhile resource that might generate interesting discussions about, I dunno, maybe different vocal chains or guitar processing or sources of inspiration or creative prompts or a resource for tutorials.

When it comes to the discussion of products though, I can't see what a separate pop forum would cater for that's much different to what already exists here. "What to buy" is well-covered. The SynthV thread seems to be an outlier to me, and I hadn't realised it was hidden from latest posts, but I can see why that happened. I can't see that Superior Drummer or Serum or FL Studio would necessarily get much more attention than they do now. And the plugins at the cheaper end of the market, the ones that tend to have the steepest discounts on Plugin Boutique for example, would they really get discussed more than they do?

Or you could do what magazine publishers do and think about the people who don't advertise here, then figure out why and what content they'd like to be alongside. But I wouldn't want to invite you to be cynical :D

A dedicated pop, or what have you, sub-forum is potentially a double-edged sword, which I suppose is why there's so much back and forth discussion around the idea.

IMHO, the biggest benefit is that the mere existence of a dedicated sub-forum indicates the topic is welcome here, and encourages members to have discussions around the topic. And of course, it makes it easier for folks to zero in on content they're specifically interested in. Wonderful.

But there's also a serious dark side... Currently, if I ask a songwriting question in the Composition sub-forum, it has the potential to reach a wide swath of the VI-C community, which means I can get a variety of diverse answers from multiple perspectives, and conversely, those answers can reach and benefit a wider segment of forum members.

With a dedicated pop sub-forum, there will likely be members who will disregard the forum because they are either not interested in pop music or feel they have nothing to contribute. Thus, we lose out on the benefit of their musical wisdom, and they lose out by not seeing answers that may be of value to all musicians (recall my mantra of "it's all music and sound").

Segmenting and siloing content too finely reduces opportunties for diversity in discussions, and taken to its extreme, can even create a sort of informational feedback loop. Personally, I would rather get as many perspectives and answers to my questions, even if some are useless to me, than receive only narrowly scoped responses.

Also, anytime you silo content, you run the risk of compromising the integrity of the forum culture. Concerns have already been expressed in this thread about how a pop sub-forum could eventually lead to an increase in knuckle-dragging troll postings. The best way to avoid this from happening is to continue having pop-related discussions exist within the normal flow of information on VI-C, where all of the respectful, and dare I say "sophisticated", members actively participate and monitor the discussions.

Okay, those are my 2 cents for the day...

Come on,

..lets at least say pop-rock, now we are at risk that a great idea gets diluted to 'Taylor Swift level' (not that I've ever heard a song of that person, but know how to spell it).

Pop-rock is the magik word

(or: singer-songwriter forum)

NekujaK said:

The best way to avoid this from happening is to continue having pop-related discussions exist within the normal flow of information on VI-C, where all of the respectful, and dare I say "sophisticated", members actively participate and monitor the discussions.

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I agree with this wholeheartedly. VI-Control may be a film music mansion, but we pop/rock/country VI musicians have never been unwelcome here. Even though our topics are not as popular and can get quickly buried and forgotten under string library threads, we still enjoy discussing and sharing our music with this community of accomplished musicians and composers.

As much as I'd love a pop/rock/country VI forum to call home, I don't think building a pop/rock/country shed off to the side of a film music mansion is the answer. I personally would rather continue mingling with everyone in the mansion, even if it sometimes takes me days to find one conversation I can engage in.

But, if a brand new house were built on the other side of the railroad tracks — one that was designed from the ground up to cater to everything from Alt-Rock to Zydeco — I think it would lure VI musicians out of the woodwork who may be looking for a home in between the film composing mansion and the bedroom EDM production mansion.

Interesting thread, folks... some good discussion about this topic, I think, and some genuine thought put in by those contributing, which is something I love about VIC! It's very rare in the internet world, and the high-functioning nature of this thread is a great example of what people understandably want to preserve. It's a pretty well-informed culture, here, and I love that.

I think the point @JEPA made is spot-on: "pop" isn't actually a style of music, after all; it's the successful marketing of any number of styles. These days, most of those are centered around the American-rooted lineages that go back to the Blues and its descendants (early "pop" music was jazz-adjacent; then rock and roll and soul/RnB; then hip hop; now it's mashed up composites of all of them). Then you have the huge influx of Caribbean and Latin American influence ("Sorry" by Justin Bieber is basically a Reggaeton beat with Skrillex treatment). Of course, American-rooted music is heavily influenced by the European traditions, and that's where we get most of our harmonic systems. In my opinion, this isn't getting into the weeds:

So... the musical fundamentals of all those are, potentially, part of "pop" music. Particularly, these days, elements of hip hop and RnB, which are currently dominating the international pop scene, stylistically speaking. And there's no reason we shouldn't be able to discuss those things here on VIC. I think just a handful of sub-fora for... say... rock, funk/soul/RnB, and hip hop would make sense. Those would be the essential ingredients to what most people consider "pop" these days, and learning the fundamentals of those actual styles will always help "pop" writing and production.

proggermusic said:

Interesting thread, folks... some good discussion about this topic, I think, and some genuine thought put in by those contributing, which is something I love about VIC! It's very rare in the internet world, and the high-functioning nature of this thread is a great example of what people understandably want to preserve. It's a pretty well-informed culture, here, and I love that.

I think the point @JEPA made is spot-on: "pop" isn't actually a style of music, after all; it's the successful marketing of any number of styles. These days, most of those are centered around the American-rooted lineages that go back to the Blues and its descendants (early "pop" music was jazz-adjacent; then rock and roll and soul/RnB; then hip hop; now it's mashed up composites of all of them). Then you have the huge influx of Caribbean and Latin American influence ("Sorry" by Justin Bieber is basically a Reggaeton beat with Skrillex treatment). Of course, American-rooted music is heavily influenced by the European traditions, and that's where we get most of our harmonic systems. In my opinion, this isn't getting into the weeds:

So... the musical fundamentals of all those are, potentially, part of "pop" music. Particularly, these days, elements of hip hop and RnB, which are currently dominating the international pop scene, stylistically speaking. And there's no reason we shouldn't be able to discuss those things here on VIC. I think just a handful of sub-fora for... say... rock, funk/soul/RnB, and hip hop would make sense. Those would be the essential ingredients to what most people consider "pop" these days, and learning the fundamentals of those actual styles will always help "pop" writing and production.

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But that is the point. I was playing the devil's advocate. Pop is a huge part of the music industry, but VI-Control is a specialized Forum. My humble opinion is that it could lose its character if it opens subfora for other genres, not bad, welcomed for me as a multi instrumentalist and as world musician opened to lot of musical genres, BUT I am with @Polkasound on this. My posts only wants to show the other side of the perspective and help to imagine if it will "fit" here, so to say...
Nobody noticed my sarcasm :


Now, don't feel offended, nothing bad with songwriting, I perform also in a Pop-latin-funk-rock band, and Songwriting plays a fundamental role of our "product ".

All I want to say is that I love lots of musical genres, but I appreciate VI-Control for being specialized in information and members you can't find anywhere else!

This talking is very interesting, maybe it pops up a good idea or solution or a decision in either ways.

I hear you, and I take absolutely no offense! I just don't agree about the potential influx for "less desirable" forum posters, I doubt that would happen... At the same time, I'm also perfectly fine if absolutely nothing here changes! I think there are plenty of places here where curious folks can ask questions about using a VI in any style of music without it being weird. And I do quite like this place as it is!

I have been a songwriter since I was 12. Even though I was a violinist in school orchestras as a child, I never had any interest in trying to write orchestral music or even music without lyrics. But when I discovered this forum, I became increasingly curious to learn more about orchestral music. I bought some libraries and took some courses. These experiments and lessons enriched my songwriting.

I was a songwriter who became interested in orchestral music through this forum. Why couldn't an orchestral composer become more interested in pop music through this forum? I actually think that the majority of people are interested to varying degrees in both. Would lively discussions ensue?

There's only one way to find out.

Markrs said:

Sounds like a great idea Mike, I notice that plenty of members on here are more focused on pop genres that orchestral.

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I'm into a mixture of both, and where I have a massive disconnect with this forum is members mostly seems to equate "orchestral" with "film", as if you somehow can't make orchestral music without a movie involved. Would love to find a place where people just enjoy making music and aren't obsessed with being film composers.

Alex Niedt said:

I'm into a mixture of both, and where I have a massive disconnect with this forum is members mostly seems to equate "orchestral" with "film", as if you somehow can't make orchestral music without a movie involved. Would love to find a place where people just enjoy making music and aren't obsessed with being film composers.

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You are not the only one, I don't create any music for film or media even though I enjoy creating soundtrack style orchestral music. I think quite a lot on here are of a similar view when it comes to orchestral music.

I’m spending most of my time in the SynthV section and BF threads, so according to the definition of a typical VI user (tm) I’m not such. But I’m still enjoying the positive and constructive attitude this forum has.

My two euro-cents (which by the way are rounded to zero in Finnish shops) to this discussion goes like this:
If someone wants help with a song in pop/rock/world music/name your unclassical music genre and starts a topic and the discussion stays in good spirit, why wouldn’t let it keep going?
And if there will be more discussions like that, then reconsider creating a subforum for them.

After all, if there’s demand for such topics here, they will appear. If they start disturbing, create that subforum.

Meanwhile I’ll go back lurking in the SynthV subforum and wish the megathread could be locked.