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babylonwaves said:
I also can't stand any more "What's the best ...", "What's the worse ...", "Talk me into that ...", "Talk me out of that ..." threads. Maybe there could be an extra area for all those threads?
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This is an occupational hazard with most forums.

To be fair, the "what's the best..." ones are understandable among people just getting started with something, even though it's almost always the wrong question. But if you're getting started, you don't really know what you personally need.

The "talk me in/out.." ones are often just attention-seeking and arguably best treated that way.

I find the "I can't make this sound, what can I buy to get it?" ones to be perhaps the most objectionable as they tend to come from repeat offenders and involve vague qualitative claims about the sound in question, like "lush strings". I always get the feeling that the answer is probably doubling up with some woodwinds or even doubling within sections but it's too painful teasing out the details and anyone asking those questions gets treated as combative, so the result is an endless shopping list of stuff other people just bought. Then again, it would all be a lot quieter if they weren't there.

As a result, the ignore-thread feature here is very handy if it gets you down.
 
Henrik B. Jensen said:
The "what to buy"-threads from newcomers is however an opportunity for us existing users to make new people feel welcome via helpful replies.
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Can't disagree. Although a search of previous posts would likely yield a boatload of information, available options and users' perspectives change. It's not like that thread from 2015 is gonna' provide all the answers, is it?

There is a degree of camaraderie here that provides many with more than a small amount of joy, myself included. We are exposed to the thinking and experiences of others as part of a supportive community. Wandering off-topic is to be expected. It sometimes yields remarkable insights. It can also be ignored.

VI-Control will never be perfect for anyone, thus making it perfect for everyone.
 
Nico5 said:
That sounds like a priority for a social chat room, more so than the more advanced resource this forum is intended to be:

New Members - Forum Guidelines

In the last couple months, we've had a number of new members who go on posting sprees. While I want the forum to be a welcoming place, it’s becoming a bit much, so I'm creating this thread so I can point to it when I ask people to slow down. Threads like this (or any “rules” announcements) are...
vi-control.net vi-control.net
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I don't think it sounds like a social chat room. The discussion is focused on the purpose of this board; it's just a little more personalised and friendly than a simple resource would be.

I like to think of this as not just a board for sharing information; but as a community sharing ideas. Some are more focused on specific problems and solutions, some are a little more general. I find that searching for information on this board is usually still pretty easy; but also that just reading through threads and exchanging thoughts is a good way to learn things, conversationally, that I wouldn't have known to search for.

But I am aware that I'm amongst those who can be a little chatty on here, so my judgement may be off. I think that friendly exchanges are good for mutual support; but I do agree that that subset of my posts might more properly belong in a social (but topic-focused) chat room.
 
Henrik B. Jensen said:
The "what to buy"-threads from newcomers is however an opportunity for us existing users to make new people feel welcome via helpful replies.

Directing new people to a FAQ page that answers those "what to buy" questions wouldn't be the same.
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You're right. "What to buy" is a valid question. Like "Where to start". Everything positive is always fine. If my last post was misleading in this regard.
 
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babylonwaves said:
You're right. "What to buy" is a valid question. Like "Where to start". Everything positive is always fine. If my last post was misleading in this regard, I apologise.
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Just a heads up, Mike posted this recently about signatures:

New rules for signatures - Especially for people "selling" something

A few people (mostly people selling courses) have been pushing the boundaries of signatures recently, with signatures that are essentially ad copy, often four lines or more, with attention-getting multicolor text and links, sometimes with emojis. What's worse, these same people tend to also...
vi-control.net vi-control.net
 
Henrik B. Jensen said:
The "what to buy"-threads from newcomers is however an opportunity for us existing users to make new people feel welcome via helpful replies.

Directing new people to a FAQ page that answers those "what to buy" questions wouldn't be the same.
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I sympathise with a lot of what has been said in this thread, but solutions can be difficult to find. When I was starting out looking for sample libraries etc I wasn't aware of forums like this, and it took me a lot longer to find what I was looking for than it could have, not to mention spending too much for lack of targeted advice.

To give an example, I have a particular interest in acoustic guitar libraries, yet I spent years of diligent web searching and still failed to find some really good stuff. VI-C has been helpful in that regard, but if I had just stumbled on it now with my original questions it would still probably take me a while to narrow the field enough.

One possibility could be for a page with links to members' own websites who might have written detailed surveys of a particular field. (We'd have to depend on Mike to decide which ones were suitable. Then there could be a thread linked to each.) This would avoid clogging up VI-C yet enable people to more quickly get an overview of what is available in a particular field. I'm not sure if anyone has done this yet, but an arrangement like this might give some people the motivation to do so. Then they could adapt and develop it using back and forth comments on VI-C. I know there are people who have websites including things like "10 Best Acoustic Guitar VIs in 2023" but they're usually not all that detailed, and seem to be mainly vehicles for affiliate marketing, often simply copying and pasting the blurbs from developers.

The members with the relevant websites could then adapt and develop their own website's page taking into account comments from other VI-C members. The advantage would be that you could have a periodically updated page that reworks the relevant field in one place, rather than having to search VI-C across multiple threads, many of which might have got a bit out of date.
 
babylonwaves said:
I also can't stand any more "What's the best ...", "What's the worse ...", "Talk me into that ...", "Talk me out of that ..." threads. Maybe there could be an extra area for all those threads?
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Yes. I wholly approve of some of Mike's scorched earth policies (toward overt misogyny, for instance, with no regard to all the hurt feelings of the "help help I'm being repressed" crowd whatever.)

And there's certain kind of blatantly uncritical sample library criticism towards which I think we would all benefit from a similar scorched earth policy.

We could have patience and empathy for newcomers, of course. So long as they're willing to learn. :)
 
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I remember the pre-Mike VI:Control and I find the current one to be a much more positive and safer place for me to go.

While I liked the old VI:Control, there were times when people said things so condescending and even mean to me that I had to take a timeout. Particularly when it came to my own music. I felt like maybe I wasn't welcome here. This was one of the reasons I did the Tiger the Frog Black Friday posts. I wanted to show that I could make a contribution.

Sometimes Mike or one of the moderators have deleted something I posted, and I'm fine with it, even if I don't understand why. It's not like "it's Mike's candy store," it's just that I'm grateful that this forum exists in the way that it does. And that requires moderation.

In terms of how many posts, there was a time when I decided I was posting too much, and I wondered why. Nowadays, when I post in an existing thread, I just ask myself if my intent is to help somebody or maybe amuse somebody (ie N). I post a new thread when there's something I need or want to know.

Otherwise, I try to keep quiet. I delete a lot of things I've written before I am about to post them. As long as I can keep to my basic rules, I never worry about whether anybody thinks I'm posting too much.

But it's useful for me to think about why I like a piece of software and put it into words. And I've learned so much from people on this forum that I would be very sad if it became unpleasant and I stopped coming.
 
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Nico5 said:
There’s a lot of strawman arguments in this thread.

No-one has advocated rudeness.

Asking for posts to be more on-topic (less chatty) and less newbie repetitive does not imply rudeness.
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I don't recall any posts suggesting that anyone is advocating rudeness. Nor posts claiming that there is a logical relationship of implication between a less chatty board an a rude one.

There may, however, be a connection between an uninviting environment and overly rigorously enforced rules on what is a suitably focused post. Something that I think Mike avoids at present; though we do also have quite a chatty board at present too.

As for outright rudeness - it happens on this board every day. And someone who is rude one day might go to great lengths to help you the next. Posters are only human. Rudeness associated with gatekeeping is pretty rare on the board at present, though; and long may that continue. How far altering the rules and enforcing them more rigorously might affect that - not as a matter of logical implication, but as a matter of reasonably predictable social psychology - I don't have any idea.
 
Nico5 said:
Not directly, but implicitly by re-directing the conversation from requests for more on topic and less repetitive posts into a discussion about a welcoming environment.
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I disagree that there is an implicit logical error in discussing a welcoming environment; nor do I think it is off topic. Perhaps you are right about what posters were thinking; I really don't know. I don't think you're right if you really mean anyone has been implicitly saying that, put roughly, [on topic policy] implies [increased rudeness]. As I said, though, there might be a connection; but not one of implication. And I haven't noticed any comments implicitly making such a claim.

As ever, I could have missed something or otherwise be wrong, though!
 
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Bee_Abney said:
I disagree that there is an implicit logical error in discussing a welcoming environment; nor do I think it is off topic. Perhaps you are right about what posters were thinking; I really don't know. I don't think you're right if you really mean anyone has been implicitly saying that, put roughly, [on topic policy] implies [increased rudeness]. As I said, though, there might be a connection; but not one of implication. And I haven't noticed any comments implicitly making such a claim.

As ever, I could have missed something or otherwise be wrong, though!
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I have the feeling that you and others are using every rhetorical weapon in your immense and extremely impressive arsenal to side-track my original plea against too much chattiness and needless repetition by changing the topic to “welcoming”. I totally understand that you and others in this thread would prefer this forum to remain more chatty.

That’s fine and I have no more right to input than anyone. Much less than many others. My right to input is actually zero.

But the chattiness makes this forum a lot less interesting for users like me, who are seeking a higher bar of knowledge and experience exchange.

I also see that I’ve become a lone voice in this thread. Since I don’t enjoy playing old-man-shaking-fist-at-the-sky, I‘ll better fade away again.
 
Nico5 said:
I have the feeling that you and others are using every rhetorical weapon in your immense and extremely impressive arsenal to side-track my original plea against too much chattiness and needless repetition by changing the topic to “welcoming”. I totally understand that you and others in this thread would prefer this forum to remain more chatty.

That’s fine and I have no more right to input than anyone. Much less than many others. My right to input is actually zero.

But the chattiness makes this forum a lot less interesting for users like me, who are seeking a higher bar of knowledge and experience exchange.

I also see that I’ve become a lone voice in this thread. Since I don’t enjoy playing old-man-shaking-fist-at-the-sky, I‘ll better fade away again.
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You've misjudged my intentions. I'm a philosopher and logician with no interest in rhetoric.

I think you've also overstated the importance your contributions have had to the contributions of others. They aren't necessarily responding to you; they are just doing their own thing.

I have greatly appreciated your thoughts, though.
 
Nico5 said:
That sounds like a priority for a social chat room, more so than the more advanced resource this forum is intended to be:

New Members - Forum Guidelines

In the last couple months, we've had a number of new members who go on posting sprees. While I want the forum to be a welcoming place, it’s becoming a bit much, so I'm creating this thread so I can point to it when I ask people to slow down. Threads like this (or any “rules” announcements) are...
vi-control.net vi-control.net
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It’s just answering newcomers VI related questions in a nice and positive spirit so they feel welcome and keep sticking around :)
 
Nico5 said:
I also see that I’ve become a lone voice in this thread. Since I don’t enjoy playing old-man-shaking-fist-at-the-sky, I‘ll better fade away again.
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Nah, I feel you. Low quality and repetitive posts are what makes veterans of the forum leave. That being said, I agree with @Bee_Abney that those other comments were not necessarily in direct response to you.



Bee_Abney said:
I'm a philosopher and logician with no interest in rhetoric.
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I am compelled to point out that rhetoric has ceased to be a solely a negative term in philosophy of argumentation! You should look into the concept of strategic maneuvering in pragma-dialectics for an example :)
 
Snarf said:
Nah, I feel you. Low quality and repetitive posts are what makes veterans of the forum leave. That being said, I agree with @Bee_Abney that those other comments were not necessarily in direct response to you.




I am compelled to point out that rhetoric has ceased to be a solely a negative term in philosophy of argumentation! You should look into the concept of strategic maneuvering in pragma-dialectics for an example :)
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I haven't even heard of philosophy of argumentation!
 
I have never thought about this, that the forum is more chatty and like social media these days than the older forum, which was more focussed and on topic.

But now you mention it, well, yes, it is true. But it’s also a way more pleasant place to be than it was a decade ago.

Back then it was still discussing the same old same old “what’s the best string library?” trope, just in a more focussed and hostile environment 😆
 
pinki said:
I have never thought about this, that the forum is more chatty and like social media these days than the older forum, which was more focussed and on topic.

But now you mention it, well, yes, it is true. But it’s also a way more pleasant place to be than it was a decade ago.

Back then it was still discussing the same old same old “what’s the best string library?” trope, just in a more focussed and hostile environment 😆
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Sonic Implants was the reigning KING!!!
 
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