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Custom Playback Rules in Staffpad - The mini "crashed" course.

I am disappointed like many, but I'm not going to go as far as to discourage people from using StaffPad. Even without the add-on libraries, I think it is a fantastic learning tool, allowing you to completely bypass DAW busy work - which has a significant superfluous learning curve in itself as if learning music wasn't challenging enough for beginners. Not gonna lie, I owe a lot to StaffPad for my musical journey and would probably have quit by now otherwise.

Re: DWH's priorities - after promising a very shiny new feature very publicly on an Apple event, they have probably been under intense pressure to deliver, damn everything else. Given the time it took (and continues to take) them, they probably underestimated the development challenges of these features. The MuseScore deal must have also thrown a wrench into their daily operations. You might think things should have got better with more resources at their disposal, but in software development, onboarding a single new engineer to a project can slow things down in the short run, let alone dealing with a new corporate structure and new owners.

I agree his response showed a strong lack of tactfulness. He might be feeling overwhelmed these days with all the change happening with his company. But I think accusing him of laziness is a bit too harsh. I am a solo developer myself, hiring contractors from time to time for extra help. Sometimes there are only so many bodies to throw at a great multitude of things that need doing/fixing.

In terms of instigating change: I suspect writing to them individually is not going to make much of a difference, but I wonder if we might get their attention better if a number of us co-signed an open letter or something, both to StaffPad and MuseScore, to highlight exactly how many people consider these to be important issues. Otherwise it's easy for them to brush us aside as noisy individuals.
 
mopsiflopsi said:
I am disappointed like many, but I'm not going to go as far as to discourage people from using StaffPad. Even without the add-on libraries, I think it is a fantastic learning tool, allowing you to completely bypass DAW busy work - which has a significant superfluous learning curve in itself as if learning music wasn't challenging enough for beginners. Not gonna lie, I owe a lot to StaffPad for my musical journey and would probably have quit by now otherwise.

Re: DWH's priorities - after promising a very shiny new feature very publicly on an Apple event, they have probably been under intense pressure to deliver, damn everything else. Given the time it took (and continues to take) them, they probably underestimated the development challenges of these features. The MuseScore deal must have also thrown a wrench into their daily operations. You might think things should have got better with more resources at their disposal, but in software development, onboarding a single new engineer to a project can slow things down in the short run, let alone dealing with a new corporate structure and new owners.

I agree his response showed a strong lack of tactfulness. He might be feeling overwhelmed these days with all the change happening with his company. But I think accusing him of laziness is a bit too harsh. I am a solo developer myself, hiring contractors from time to time for extra help. Sometimes there are only so many bodies to throw at a great multitude of things that need doing/fixing.

In terms of instigating change: I suspect writing to them individually is not going to make much of a difference, but I wonder if we might get their attention better if a number of us co-signed an open letter or something, both to StaffPad and MuseScore, to highlight exactly how many people consider these to be important issues. Otherwise it's easy for them to brush us aside as noisy individuals.
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The part that you are missing is that these playback problems have persisted for a couple of years now, and suddenly Servandus showed us how easy they were to fix. They just never get fixed. Libraries that we paid good hard cash for simply never work like they should because they can't take a little bit of time and tweak the XML files. Then someone comes along with seemingly more know-how than they have, and they won't let him do it either, users be damned.

I won't debate the merits of StaffPad. I saw them instantly, and I invested in it--heavily. But what we have right now is the equivalent of a homeowner putting a new addition on his house while his existing house has broken pipes, missing windows, and a leaking roof. You fix what you have before you build anew. In this instance, a neighbor stopped by and said, "Hey, let me help you fix some of this stuff," and DWH said, "Meh, no thanks."

The potential of this app is momentous, but it is being completely undermined by wholesale neglect of the app's core function in favor of some drum loops and a cheap party trick that every DAW has been able to do for 20 years.
 
Finally found some time today to comment on your thoughts. Warning: this is going to be long, and probably as boring as useless ;)

Jett Hitt said:
If you make headway with Dorico expression maps, please do share your experience and resources here.
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Will do, Jett. And yes, it's tedious, and definitely not as straightforward as editing the definition files in Staffpad, but it will probably be worth it in the long term.

MadLad said:
I sure hope so but when? Like, the thing with the dynamics of the staccato vs. legato in your video?
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Jett Hitt said:
I’m pretty sure he was being sarcastic. But you’re right, it’s beyond ridiculous that these things weren’t fixed long ago after we saw how easy it was.
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Yes, I was. It was just me trying to write in English at 3.00 am :emoji_zzz:

Some of the most dramatic improvements shown in the video I sent them are just half a line of code. That's the tragedy of all this nonsense.

ssnowe said:
You ever work in a job or been in a relationship that wasn't going anywhere but you stuck with it, just because it was convenient.
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At some point in the past I actually thought I was going to marry the girl :) It's just that his father probably wanted a less picky, less independent son in law, and thought I would disgrace her and ruin her life, so he sent her away so that she could meet nicer candidates who wouldn't compromise the integrity of the family. I still feel tempted to date her in secret (she goes on wooing me, you know), but there's really no future. If only her father changed his mind...

sundrowned said:
As far as I'm concerned staffpad are rejecting considerable income by not doing any of the above. Which I struggle to understand.
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I also mentioned that in my message to DWH. Even if I can understand his reasons for keeping his app as closed as possible, I can't help feeling that it's a big mistake.

Jett Hitt said:
And then when the Musescore guy came on the forum here and spouted a bunch of crap about the lofty direction it was going and then deleted all of his comments and DMed us and asked us to delete our comments where we had quoted him, I knew we were in deep doo-doo.
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Missed that. Is the thread still there? What was it about?

CologneComposer said:
It is a good Idea to concentrate the Efforts now on Dorico 4. But as I understand the Playback Architecture of both apps, Dorico can not manage the Legato transitions, we are used to have in Staffpad, because of real time Playback.
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Please, don't use "real time playback" and "legato transitions" in the same sentence, Henrik. Makes my heart bleed 😂

Jett Hitt said:
@servandus I wish you would repost the playback example that you sent to StaffPad so that people who look at this in the future can see what they rejected. I want to look back at it myself once in a while to remind myself what was lost.
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muratkayi said:
That's right, that video in itself can't be a problem and it was a magnificent documentation of everything that's been going on...
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Well, I guess you're right, so here it is:

​


To put this in context for anyone who didn't follow the discussions in the old thread, this is a brief summary of our suggestions:
  • openly allowing / encouraging users to create custom playback definition files
  • making it easy to deal with the definition files in both platforms (right now, editing these files is a much more convoluted process on Ipad than it is on Windows)
  • documenting the scripting language in detail
  • implementing a simple way of loading/changing xml playback rules in the UI (the instrument pop-up window would be a nice place, above or below the mixer settings)
  • fostering a community of users (a forum would be ideal), where these files could be shared, new techniques discussed, etc. There is a dedicated thread at the Dorico forum where users post custom expression maps for different libraries. It would be nice if we could do the same with Staffpad's playback definition files.

rsg22 said:
For me, and this is just my opinion, I can live with the terrible handwriting recognition
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Same here. Even if I can type music much faster in Sibelius or Dorico, there's something "atavistic" in using pen and paper that just makes me feel more comfortable and focused (maybe that's the price I have to pay for my classical training). Staffpad is the closest thing I've experienced on a computer so far, but there are still issues as exasperating as the playback problems.

Composer 2021 said:
I think DWH is trying to keep in the good graces of Apple.
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I agree. The fact that the original Windows version was implemented much freely in terms of user customization points in that direction.

Composer 2021 said:
Maybe DWH is trying not to upset Apple by issuing a reply which echoes the EULA, and maybe the original thread’s deletion was a complete over-reaction.
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Just to clarify, the thread was deleted by the mods on my request. I spent quite a bit of time on it, you know, but my conversation with DWH was very transparent on both ends, and he explicitly mentioned showing the xml code in a public forum as a breach of the EULA. I also didn't want to cause any problems to the mods here at vi-control. If you see that as a complete over-reaction it's ok with me, but even if I completely disagree with DWH, my respect for a developer will always be stronger than my disappointment.
 
muratkayi said:
You could also argue that calling what servandus did a breach of EULA by reverse engineering is a load of bullocks, because he did not even reverse engineer the software itself, but just figured out the rules of some open protocols (in order to repair a malfunctioning software to boot).
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Yes, that is what I always thought. Reverse engineering is also prohibited in Steinberg's EULA, for example, but you can edit and create expression maps without any problem. DHW's point is that, unlike Dorico, Staffpad isn't advertised as having a configurable playback engine, and those xml files are therefore considered source files using a proprietary scripting language. I still don't see it that way, but...

muratkayi said:
But all that is irrelevant, actually. At least in my opinion. Relevant is:
- Staffpad does not care for user input
- They want that whole community driven help and effort shut down
- They will not mind any community modifications in further updates on the playback engine which might render every effort useless in the long run
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I agree 100%. That's the saddest thing for me also.

Gil said:
Making public some private things means big work: add an UI for the customization, take in account all the user can do and try not to mess with the playback or even worse make the app crashing, even if you demonstrate that articulation customization can be done, add application testing, beta testers, ...
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You are a developer, so I can't really argue with you on that. All I can say is that, at least on Windows, you can write "Mary had a little Lamb" in the xml files and Staffpad will run perfectly fine, no crashes, no surprises. Only thing is it won't play "Mary had a little Lamb". For this to happen a little more R&D on AI would be needed :)

As far as I can tell, those xml files are just bindings, and only affect playback. They behave exactly like expression maps. But I speak only based on my own experience. I'm not a developer and therefore I can't generalize.

Gil said:
I began to test just the marcato articulation with the Berlin library and will share my results in a new thread in a few days, trying to provide solutions to problems, like a beginning of a database or a spreadsheet for a reference.
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That might be of greater value right now for general users than my tutorial, Gil. I'll be happy to post in your thread, should I have something helpful to say.

mopsiflopsi said:
I agree his response showed a strong lack of tactfulness.
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It might seem so just because I only quoted the most objective, relevant paragraphs he wrote, but he was as firm as friendly in his reply. Just wanted to clarify that.

mopsiflopsi said:
Re: DWH's priorities - after promising a very shiny new feature very publicly on an Apple event, they have probably been under intense pressure to deliver, damn everything else. Given the time it took (and continues to take) them, they probably underestimated the development challenges of these features.
Click to expand...
I also think that is highly probable. But I also think that having no articulation lists (let alone how to trigger them in the score) after all this time, it's a clear sign that it's not only pressure that's playing a role here. It's a business strategy: new features to attract new customers comes first. They are doing that from the very beginning. I remember when the third party libraries frst came out, a lot of people were already bitterly complaining about the same handwriting recognition and notation issues we're still complaining about today. But yes, on top of that, surely Apple adds a lot of pressure in the development process.

Jett Hitt said:
I won't debate the merits of StaffPad. I saw them instantly, and I invested in it--heavily.
The potential of this app is momentous, but it is being completely undermined by wholesale neglect of the app's core function in favor of some drum loops and a cheap party trick that every DAW has been able to do for 20 years.
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The frustration of those of us who have invested heavily in Staffpad (both financially and time-wise) is on another level, that's for sure.

See, when I used Staffpad for the very first time I loaded a string orchestra template for the Berlin Strings. I just wrote down some simple ideas, pressed play and thought: "holy shit, how is this even possible?". Well, it took less than a weekend for me to feel like a beta tester. In fact, I started a list with all the issues I was finding, and in just a few days I realized that it would take a ridiculous amount of time to report them all, so I started by reporting only the first one (many instruments in the woodwinds and brass sections of the Berlin Series wouldn't play because there was an issue in the download process). I got a generic reply that solved absolutely nothing. Then radio silence. It took months until they solved the problem and I could finally use the winds. I then looked at the list, smiled, and began my PhD in reverse engineering 🤣

muratkayi said:
Let's do it!
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See, at one point DWH wrote about how great the hundreds of tracks he receives everyday from Staffpad users sound. My wife was reading this and asked: "Has he listened to that epilectic bassoonist in your example?". Well, to say the truth, she's a professional flutist and never likes anything I show her, but in this case yes, I think that his talking about how great Staffpad mockups sound is kind of symptomatic. What he has achieved with Staffpad is absolutely insane, and the way he speaks about "his baby", made me realize that he won't take any inputs from users until he's done implementing his original vision (whatever it might be, whenever it happens). I very much like that in a way... but this time it goes fully against everything I want from the app.
 
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servandus said:
Missed that. Is the thread still there? What was it about?
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I glanced back at the time frame, which was May 10 or so last year, but there are so many threads that I don't really know which one it was. His screen name was @workedintheory, and I can't even tag him now, so I guess he deleted it or whatever one does. In short, he jumped on one of the threads where we were expressing concern about the sale of StaffPad to Musescore. He blathered a bunch for a day or two and then deleted everything he said and sent us DMs. Mine is attached. Screen Shot 2022-01-20 at 4.54.10 PM.png

PS. Well I guess I can tag him after all, but it didn't pop up as an option.
 
servandus said:
At some point in the past I actually thought I was going to marry the girl :) It's just that his father probably wanted a less picky, less independent son in law, and thought I would disgrace her and ruin her life, so he sent her away so that she could meet nicer candidates who wouldn't compromise the integrity of the family. I still feel tempted to date her in secret (she goes on wooing me, you know), but there's really no future. If only her father changed his mind...
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This btw was priceless. I'm still laughing, even though part of me is crying.
 
Back from a short 2-week vacation, opened the thread in excitement...

AANNND it's gone. | News | South Park Studios US

I love StaffPad and writing with a pen, it feels very natural to me because of how I studied music in the first place. And it does sound great! It's too bad it could sound much better with such simple fixes and yet we have to endure some arbitrary timeline where these solutions are not a priority. Feels particularly frustrating because of just how easy to improve it seem to be.

I'll still keep using StaffPad for practice, quick input and rough audio drafts. The only thing that sucks a bit is that I then will likely have to jump somewhere else to get a mockup and do all the tech tweaking because of this entire legal conundrum.
 
Yeah I agree, if tinkering with the playback engine is what one wants Dorico is the way to go. It's built upon the idea that users would develop a community for that sort of thing. Additionally it allows you to add as many libraries as you have available, which StaffPad will never allow users to do.
 
Jacob Moss said:
Yeah I agree, if tinkering with the playback engine is what one wants Dorico is the way to go. It's built upon the idea that users would develop a community for that sort of thing. Additionally it allows you to add as many libraries as you have available, which StaffPad will never allow users to do.
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Yeah, I really hope they'll improve playback, preferably with the help of the users. Right now, I'm using the BBCSO template and it's fine but nowhere near as good as the Staffpad playback. I heard Noteperformer is much better but I'll wait for version 4 because someone here mentioned they might update their VST library. It's not too bad but not that great, either judging from all the demos I've heard.
 
Oh my dear most Holy Mother of God.. I just discovered this thread, a bit after the most recent update now, which clearly made things even worse than they were before. Reading through all this, I'm out of words, really. And just about ready to give up on Staffpad and its "realistic playback" for good.
Yeah, basically all that I feel has already been expressed in this thread.. and I share those sentiments with every one of you. There was once a dream that was Rome.. except, in this case, shall not be realized, unfortunately.
 
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