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Dorico 5 released (May 24, 2023)

Ivan Duch said:
Glad to see you back around here!

I think it's highly dependent on the type of music you write. For orchestral music, I'd say yes. And I think it's a better tool for that than a DAW if you like to write with notation.

That said, you'll need VEP to handle the VST hosting and handle mixing a bit better. (although it might be argued that if you use Noteperformer for the core of your samples and load just a few instruments into Dorico you should be fine) Noteperformer 4 reduces the amount of work you have to do as well since it plays your own samples (those available). And there's nothing like Noteperformer 4 for DAWs, it's a huge time saver.

My current workflow usually consists of sketching some ideas on paper, orchestrating and developing on Dorico with Noteperformer 4, and then I start adding some extra instruments hosted on VEP for those lines that aren't working well with Noteperformer. I add tempo changes for handling expression a bit better as well.

Finally, I export stems from Dorico to Reaper and also the midi (many times just for the tempo map) and do the final mixing in Reaper and might add synths or some extra production elements in there.

There are some stuff Dorico can't do like working with audio (that's a big thing if you record stuff for your productions, I tend to) and it can't freeze tracks. But as a composition tool for getting you 90% of the way I'd say it's amazing. I also find recording live instruments on a DAW to be more straightforward and easier to edit than in Dorico.

It might sound like switching between paper, Dorico, and Reaper could be very time-consuming, but I find that when I work directly on a DAW I get lost way more often with my writing. I write very fast on Dorico.
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Hi @Ivan Duch ,

Thank you so much for your helpful feedback on Dorico 5. OH.. and It's great to be back in the forum. 😎

I'm hoping that Steinberg will improve Dorico's VST Hosting, and Mixing tools in the near future, so that it can do the job of traditional DAWs (audio recording not required, since I can use a traditional DAW for that when needed), and it would be nice it it didn't require one to use VE-Pro for hosting VSTs / 3rd Party Libraries, and had a more advanced mixing environment.

With regards to Dorico's VST/Library hosting, what is the main issue right now ?

I'm aware that Noteperformer offers various sample library options, besides using the native NP engine. i.e. VSL Prime, BBCSO Pro/Core, Cinematic Studio Series, EW-Opus Orch. , Berlin Orch. , ..etc.

So how good are the NP Orch. Sounds, compared to the add-on library engines they support ? Are you using the native NP sounds ? and how good/easy is the articulation management system in Dorico 5 when using their own engine, or any of the add-on library packs. Do the articulations automatically change based on the articulation input for the specific notes, no user setup needed for the articulations ?

Being a Studio One Pro 6 users, I was hoping that Presonus would release Notion 7, offering great integration of notation program, with S1Pro 6. Notion 6 has not been updated for quite a long time, and feels like it's abandoned for now, I might look into using Notion 7 if it is released in the future.

Thanks,
Muziksculp
 
muziksculp said:
Hi @Ivan Duch ,

Thank you so much for your helpful feedback on Dorico 5. OH.. and It's great to be back in the forum. 😎

I'm hoping that Steinberg will improve Dorico's VST Hosting, and Mixing tools in the near future, so that it can do the job of traditional DAWs (audio recording not required, since I can use a traditional DAW for that when needed), and it would be nice it it didn't require one to use VE-Pro for hosting VSTs / 3rd Party Libraries, and had a more advanced mixing environment.

With regards to Dorico's VST/Library hosting, what is the main issue right now ?

I'm aware that Noteperformer offers various sample library options, besides using the native NP engine. i.e. VSL Prime, BBCSO Pro/Core, Cinematic Studio Series, EW-Opus Orch. , Berlin Orch. , ..etc.

So how good are the NP Orch. Sounds, compared to the add-on library engines they support ? Are you using the native NP sounds ? and how good/easy is the articulation management system in Dorico 5 when using their own engine, or any of the add-on library packs. Do the articulations automatically change based on the articulation input for the specific notes, no user setup needed for the articulations ?

Being a Studio One Pro 6 users, I was hoping that Presonus would release Notion 7, offering great integration of notation program, with S1Pro 6. Notion 6 has not been updated for quite a long time, and feels like it's abandoned for now, I might look into using Notion 7 if it is released in the future.

Thanks,
Muziksculp
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I think their current hosting is useable, but with big orchestral templates I experienced quite a bit of crashes and sluggishness in Dorico 4 (now I'm on Dorico 5 but haven't tested again), that's the main reason I stopped trying. The mixing right now is decent. VEP mixing features are a bit more flexible and I have my template already built in there, that's the main reason I use it over Dorico's but @ed buller was using Dorico for mixing and spatialization last time I asked him.

With NP I mostly use BBCSO and sometimes I do use some NP sounds for the final productions, mostly some of the brass and winds. Basically, I export stems from NP itself and Dorico and sometimes even layer NP sounds with BBCSO.

There are some phrases where I want to have more control and play it myself, or I just want an instrument that isn't part of BBCSO or has more round robins, or dynamic layers, for that, I use my other libraries hosted in VEP.

The expression maps in Dorico are quite powerful (the best I've used) and the midi editor is quite good. One cool feature added in Dorico 5 was the delay offset per articulation, super useful, I wish most DAWs had that.

Something that's not usually mentioned is how easy is to edit midi notes through notation. With DAWs you normally have to open the midi event of each instrument and then edit, normally losing a bit of context. With notation software you just move around and edit everything while easily reading who's playing what on the screen. I mean, from a pure midi editing perspective, it has it merits, not to mention all the other benefits when you like to work in notation. Also, writing in Dorico is faster than playing or step input in a DAW once you get used to it, not to mention articulation switching.
 
Ivan Duch said:
I think their current hosting is useable, but with big orchestral templates I experienced quite a bit of crashes and sluggishness in Dorico 4 (now I'm on Dorico 5 but haven't tested again), that's the main reason I stopped trying. The mixing right now is decent. VEP mixing features are a bit more flexible and I have my template already built in there, that's the main reason I use it over Dorico's but @ed buller was using Dorico for mixing and spatialization last time I asked him.

With NP I mostly use BBCSO and sometimes I do use some NP sounds for the final productions, mostly some of the brass and winds. Basically, I export stems from NP itself and Dorico and sometimes even layer NP sounds with BBCSO.

There are some phrases where I want to have more control and play it myself, or I just want an instrument that isn't part of BBCSO or has more round robins, or dynamic layers, for that, I use my other libraries hosted in VEP.

The expression maps in Dorico are quite powerful (the best I've used) and the midi editor is quite good. One cool feature added in Dorico 5 was the delay offset per articulation, super useful, I wish most DAWs had that.

Something that's not usually mentioned is how easy is to edit midi notes through notation. With DAWs you normally have to open the midi event of each instrument and then edit, normally losing a bit of context. With notation software you just move around and edit everything while easily reading who's playing what on the screen. I mean, from a pure midi editing perspective, it has it merits, not to mention all the other benefits when you like to work in notation. Also, writing in Dorico is faster than playing or step input in a DAW once you get used to it, not to mention articulation switching.
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Hi @Ivan Duch ,

Thanks. I really appreciate your helpful feedback.

I plan to watch some Dorico 5 Pro video tutorials to get a better grasp of how things work in Dorico 5 Pro, and the general workflow details, i.e. editing, input, mixing, articulation control, controllers, ..etc.

I did a bit of preliminary research on notation programs, and I'm finding Dorico 5 Pro to be the most advanced one, and possibly the one that suits me best when it comes to having both notation, and traditional DAW midi editing features in one application. Plus it supports video for scoring to pic.

Cheers,
Muziksculp
 
I tried Noteperformer4 with Dorico5 here:

Funny Sketch & Noteperformer4/Dorico

This is an experiment. I wanted to try Dorico with Noteperformer 4 and sample libraries. My idea was to create a kind of action cue. But without a movie to follow I could react to I'm often stuck in those "what to do next?" moments. So I improvised a two minute sketch without any tonal or...
vi-control.net vi-control.net
 
Saxer said:
I tried Noteperformer4 with Dorico5 here:

Funny Sketch & Noteperformer4/Dorico

This is an experiment. I wanted to try Dorico with Noteperformer 4 and sample libraries. My idea was to create a kind of action cue. But without a movie to follow I could react to I'm often stuck in those "what to do next?" moments. So I improvised a two minute sketch without any tonal or...
vi-control.net vi-control.net
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I missed that post of yours. It sounds great to me. I mean, a good mockup done within a fraction of the usual time.
 
muziksculp said:
It does seem to have a bit of a steep learning curve.
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I wouldn't say that. I just got to work with it, watched some of Dorico's own videos on Youtube and the rest was mostly googling to learn the shortcuts whenever I needed until I memorized them. J key is your friend for quick navigation, I use that one a lot.

Learn the popovers as well, like shift+p for articulations, shift+o for ornaments, etc, etc. That's a genius feature and the inner language of each in particular. Stuff like shift+d and then p<f creates a hairpin going from p to f for the selected notes or shift+r and 3 creates an unmeasured tremolo.

My main reference is this website: https://steinberg.help/dorico/v1/en...ation_reference_articulations_playback_c.html but I haven't had to open that in a long time now.

The most complicated side of Dorico is the expression maps (although not so much if you ever used anything similar in a DAW). If you use NP4 while you learn your way around Dorico you won't have to bother yourself with them.
 
Maybe it's because I'm such a newbie, but I'm finding that experimenting with different libraries (or combinations of them) is rather an annoying business in Dorico, with or without VEPro. I'm inclined to fall back on Logic for this, and I suspect that it may be a consideration for musiksculp too! :) But, once you have your instruments and expression maps set up, Dorico is a joy to use. It's so liberating not to have to faff about with a piano roll, or with what passes for a notation editor in a DAW.
 
Ivan Duch said:
I wouldn't say that.
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I would. This is partly because it's often hard to find the relevant bit of the manual: the search function is awful. It's often easier to find an explanation in the forum, and the explanations there tend to be less terse than those in the manual. And I found it difficult to use Steinberg's videos as a way in, because they're mostly either very short or livestreams. Doug Zangar's courses on Groove3.com are excellent, but he doesn't say much about Play mode, which I have found the hardest to get my head around.
 
Ivan Duch said:
I wouldn't say that. I just got to work with it, watched some of Dorico's own videos on Youtube and the rest was mostly googling to learn the shortcuts whenever I needed until I memorized them. J key is your friend for quick navigation, I use that one a lot.

Learn the popovers as well, like shift+p for articulations, shift+o for ornaments, etc, etc. That's a genius feature and the inner language of each in particular. Stuff like shift+d and then p<f creates a hairpin going from p to f for the selected notes or shift+r and 3 creates an unmeasured tremolo.

My main reference is this website: https://steinberg.help/dorico/v1/en...ation_reference_articulations_playback_c.html but I haven't had to open that in a long time now.

The most complicated side of Dorico is the expression maps (although not so much if you ever used anything similar in a DAW). If you use NP4 while you learn your way around Dorico you won't have to bother yourself with them.
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Thanks 🙏
 
Wensleydale said:
I would. This is partly because it's often hard to find the relevant bit of the manual: the search function is awful. It's often easier to find an explanation in the forum, and the explanations there tend to be less terse than those in the manual. And I found it difficult to use Steinberg's videos as a way in, because they're mostly either very short or livestreams. Doug Zangar's courses on Groove3.com are excellent, but he doesn't say much about Play mode, which I have found the hardest to get my head around.
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Usually I have to resort to a full blown google search to get a simple answer. I can't believe how awful that manual is!!! I love how they will tell you to use such and such a button but fail to tell you where it is...it's almost like they are trying to make it hard to understand...
 
Wensleydale said:
I would. This is partly because it's often hard to find the relevant bit of the manual: the search function is awful. It's often easier to find an explanation in the forum, and the explanations there tend to be less terse than those in the manual. And I found it difficult to use Steinberg's videos as a way in, because they're mostly either very short or livestreams. Doug Zangar's courses on Groove3.com are excellent, but he doesn't say much about Play mode, which I have found the hardest to get my head around.
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Just further to this - I also find the program incredibly un-intuitive to use. There's a mindset that one should use keyboard shortcuts for everything, so it is not all that mouse-friendly. I don't know how the same team that made Sibelius, which was incredibly intuitive overall, then went on to make Dorico, which for me is not intuitive at all..

I use it when I have to, gritting my teeth. Probably if I was using it all the time I would say differently, but I just don't get along with it very well.

However, I must say, it is an incredible program, and I admire and respect it while cursing it.
 
How does Dorico 5 compare to Sibelius, when using a piano controller for live midi recording? Sibelius' Renotate Performance function is brilliant, and cleans up the note input very well (removing unnecessary rests, complicated note values etc.). Since I'm a piano player, I use midi record as much as possible when making sheet music and scores.

I couldn't find a similar function in Dorico 4, and the piano midi record didn't work as well (cleaning up notation) as Sibelius. Has Dorico 5 improved in this area?

For sheet music Sibelius works great, and has improved quite a bit the last few years. I struggled with Dorico 4 and its very different user interface. I agree with Thundercat. Something as basic as a proper search function is missing in Dorico (4 at least), unlike Sibelius.
 
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Mike Stone said:
How does Dorico 5 compare to Sibelius, when using a piano controller for live midi recording? Sibelius' Renotate Performance function is brilliant, and cleans up the note input very well (removing unnecessary rests, complicated note values etc.). Since I'm a piano player, I use midi record as much as possible when making sheet music and scores.

I couldn't find a similar function in Dorico 4, and the piano midi record didn't work as well (cleaning up notation) as Sibelius. Has Dorico 5 improved in this area?

For sheet music Sibelius works great, and has improved quite a bit the last few years. I struggled with Dorico 4 and its very different user interface. I agree with Thundercat. Something as basic as a proper search function is missing in Dorico (4 at least), unlike Sibelius.
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I've never used Sibelius but tbh I struggle with midi note input to Dorico which like you is my preferred initial creation method. One workaround another user told me about is to create an empty expression map for the instrument you want to compose for as otherwise Dorico decides which articulation it will use often overriding the user's live input choice. So at present, even in Dorico 5, midi input is a battle with the application so very frustrating. I'm certain the Dorico team will address the problem in a future update (perhaps by giving the user the option to suspend the use of an expression map during live/midi input) but in the meantime straight note input is the most favoured method and I sketch composition ideas in my DAW instead. From what I hear in every other way Dorico 5 is streets ahead of Sibelius.
 
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