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Help me love Vangelis

Pingu said:
True, although I think I would probably argue that Tangerine Dream had very little actual musical ability or imagination. I strongly suspect that they were random button tweakers, who hit on some exciting aleatoric sounds that captured the moment.
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oh so untrue!....Lord where to start. I am biased as I got to know Chris Franke and am still friends with one of their engineers that helped make their best record. Hardly random. They where trailblazers from the bottom up. Serious musicians too! The helped design a lot of syntherziser components that we use continually now,

But an example;



@10;26 a large tam tam fades in. This is replaced by a replication of the sound on a large Moog system. This is 74. This sound is basically 10 oscillators tuned so they don't beat, then filtered through this: IMG_9140.JPG

Chris Franke's old Moog 914 ( now owned by HZ) It's not stock as it has separate outputs for each band. As you can hear Chris slowly manipulates the sound to "dry it out" like a river bed. as it get's thinner and thinner Peter Baumann's VCS plays this haunting whistle "like a dog in a desert" over the top.

To my 13 year old ears this was the most extraordinary music I had ever heard.

or



This is Live at Croydon Fairfield Halls in 75. Hans was there! Now I a m lucky enough to have the multitrack and this section IS live. It's three mono tracks, each from a mixer on stage. The Bulk of what you are hearing is Chris Franke. There are 2 moog 960 step sequencers playing and Edgar is trying to play 8th notes through a delay on top to synch with em...all live!

If you really want to find out how good and innovative they where listen to


alpha centuri 71
Zeit 72
Atem 73
phaedra 74
rubycon 75
ricochet 75

Best

ed
 
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Pingu said:
True, although I think I would probably argue that Tangerine Dream had very little actual musical ability or imagination. I strongly suspect that they were random button tweakers, who hit on some exciting aleatoric sounds that captured the moment. I was a big fan, and had most of their cassettes in the 80s. Then I learned they were still releasing stuff about 10 years ago, and bought a boxed set of their newest albums, and am literally using them as coasters. It's as though someone told them 'you've got to stop with all the random noises, and show us you can do harmony and traditional structures;' and they have, except they can't. They have a harmonic vocabulary smaller than Vangelis, they use awful 80s pad sounds, and have quite a limited sax player noodling over a lot of it. I wouldn't even play it in those shops where you buy wind chimes and scented candles.
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I would suggest that this is a rather harsh assessment of the Froese/Franke/Baumann or Froese/Franke/Schmoelling periods for Tangerine Dream. (Actually, for "rather harsh" read utterly wrong, but that is my entirely biased opinion).
I do not listen to post-Schmoelling TD stuff, though I have liked some of the things Thorsten Quaeschning has done outside of the current TD line-up.
 
ed buller said:
oh so untrue!....Lord where to start. I am biased as I got to know Chris Franke and am still friends with one of their engineers that helped make their best record. Hardly random. They where trailblazers from the bottom up. Serious musicians too! The helped design a lot of syntherziser components that we use continually now,

But an example;



@10;26 a large tam tam fades in. This is replaced by a replication of the sound on a large Moog system. This is 74. This sound is basically 10 oscillators tuned so they don't beat, then filtered through this: IMG_9140.JPG

Chris Franke's old Moog 914 ( now owned by HZ) It's not stock as it has separate outputs for each band. As you can hear Chris slowly manipulates the sound to "dry it out" like a river bed. as it get's thinner and thinner Peter Baumann's VCS plays this haunting whistle "like a dog in a desert" over the top.

To my 13 year old ears this was the most extraordinary music I had ever heard.

or



This is Live at Croydon Fairfield Halls in 75. Hans was there! Now I a m lucky enough to have the multitrack and this section IS live. It's three mono tracks, each from a mixer on stage. The Bulk of what you are hearing is Chris Franke. There is are 2 moog 960 step sequencers playing and Edgar is trying to play 8th notes through a delay on top to synch with em...all live!

If you really want to find out how good and innovative they where listen to


alpha centuri 71
Zeit 72
Atem 73
phaedra 74
rubycon 75
ricochet 75

Best

ed
Click to expand...

I've heard all of those - as I said, I was a big fan. But I'm struggling to account for what they're churning out now. I have to confess I haven't kept track of the line up, so it could be that what is passing for Tangerine Dream is one member plus whoever he can gather - I don't know, but what was being put out last time I checked in is absolutely not worth listening to.
 
Pingu said:
I've heard all of those - as I said, I was a big fan. But I'm struggling to account for what they're churning out now. I have to confess I haven't kept track of the line up, so it could be that what is passing for Tangerine Dream is one member plus whoever he can gather - I don't know, but what was being put out last time I checked in is absolutely not worth listening to.
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yeah it's awful. It's basically what was left after Edgar passed, but to be honest they died in 77 when Peter left for me. And they where already getting tad cheesy.


Best

ed
 
I am quite amazed by the opening post, as i really don't see the point.

There is no "need" to "love" a composers work to begin with.
You should also have stopped the discussion earlier on, because you now somehow feel urged to "love" certain musical works from in this case Vangelis. (let alone the "level" of his craft, compared to another composer, which is apples vs banana's)

It's rather simple: you feel attracted/attached to certain music, or you don't.
And what you like now, you might not like as much later on in life. and vice versa. No need for convincing, or a "must" and "need" to like it.

Luckily we all have personal tastes, resulting in all kinds of music (or other art forms). You don't appear to like some of those music pieces, which is totally fine, and to be expected.
Just as i don't like some music pieces. (everyone here really, has dislikes).

----------
So tell me, why you are wanting us to convince you to like Vangelis' works? Or why his works are on the same level as John Williams (to move and continue an odd discussion you had, to this forum?)
You clearly feel no attraction to the majority of works he made. Which is totally fine.
Really, i don't see the point.
 
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avid_d said:
I would suggest that this is a rather harsh assessment of the Froese/Franke/Baumann or Froese/Franke/Schmoelling periods for Tangerine Dream. (Actually, for "rather harsh" read utterly wrong, but that is my entirely biased opinion).
I do not listen to post-Schmoelling TD stuff, though I have liked some of the things Thorsten Quaeschning has done outside of the current TD line-up.
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You're right - it's a very harsh assessment, which I take back. I was speculating wildly, in order to try and account for the change in their output. I mean it's as thought Stravinsky suddenly became Einaudi - and if that happened I'd start wondering which ghost writers produced the Rite. But I don't think I'd realised how much the line up of TD had changed. I call myself a fan, but was actually just an avid listener, who never really read anything about them. Just checking their official site now.
 
RogiervG said:
I am quite amazed by the opening post, as i really don't see the point.

There is no "need" to "love" a composers work to begin with.
You should also have stopped the discussion earlier on, because you now somehow feel urged to "love" certain musical works from in this case Vangelis. (let alone the "level" of his craft, compared to another composer, which is apples vs banana's)

It's rather simple: you feel attracted/attached to certain music, or you don't.
And what you like now, you might not like as much later on in life. and vice versa. No need for convincing, or a "must" and "need" to like it.

Luckily we all have personal tastes, resulting in all kinds of music (or other art forms). You don't appear to like some of those music pieces, which is totally fine, and to be expected.
Just as i don't like some music pieces. (everyone here really, has dislikes).

----------
So tell me, why you are wanting us to convince you to like Vangelis' works? Or why his works are on the same level as John Williams (to move and continue an odd discussion you had, to this forum?)
You clearly feel no attraction to the majority of works he made. Which is totally fine.
Really, i don't see the point.
Click to expand...
The conversation is the point, no? Speaking for myself, I'm enjoying this ;) not least the links and suggestions etc.
 
Laddy said:
The conversation is the point, no? Speaking for myself, I'm enjoying this ;) not least the links and suggestions etc.
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it's the motivation underneath it, that wonders me. (the "need" to "love" some composers work. And the described ignitor to this "need", some odd discussion he had with someone.)

I find this more fitting the "off topic" section of the forum, because of that.
 
Pingu said:
You're right - it's a very harsh assessment, which I take back. I was speculating wildly, in order to try and account for the change in their output. I mean it's as thought Stravinsky suddenly became Einaudi - and if that happened I'd start wondering which ghost writers produced the Rite. But I don't think I'd realised how much the line up of TD had changed. I call myself a fan, but was actually just an avid listener, who never really read anything about them. Just checking their official site now.
Click to expand...
The reality is that TD now is the equivalent of a Pink Floyd without Waters, Gilmour, Mason and Wright.

I do not disagree with your assessment of the TD catalogue for the past 20 years.
 
RogiervG said:
I am quite amazed by the opening post, as i really don't see the point.

There is no "need" to "love" a composers work to begin with.
You should also have stopped the discussion earlier on, because you now somehow feel urged to "love" certain musical works from in this case Vangelis. (let alone the "level" of his craft, compared to another composer, which is apples vs banana's)

It's rather simple: you feel attracted/attached to certain music, or you don't.
And what you like now, you might not like as much later on in life. and vice versa. No need for convincing, or a "must" and "need" to like it.

Luckily we all have personal tastes, resulting in all kinds of music (or other art forms). You don't appear to like some of those music pieces, which is totally fine, and to be expected.
Just as i don't like some music pieces. (everyone here really, has dislikes).

----------
So tell me, why you are wanting us to convince you to like Vangelis' works? Or why his works are on the same level as John Williams (to move and continue an odd discussion you had, to this forum?)
You clearly feel no attraction to the majority of works he made. Which is totally fine.
Really, i don't see the point.
Click to expand...
Certain amount of irony there. I can't seem to find what it is people like in Vangelis, so I post about it. You personally can't see the point in my post, so you feel the need to post about it. But your pointless posting is somehow different?

I'm posting because I believe there must be something there that I'm not getting. Musicians sometimes enjoy huge followings for reasons that are more social than the art itself - as in Einaudi and Taylor Swift - but that tends to be fleeting. When someone has a career of decades, and is still receiving invites to write for NASA and major films at the tail end of it, it seems unlikely he was just in the right place at the right time. And since being guided in what people see in something can often lead to the light going on, and then a genuine change in tastes, I was quite sincerely asking what it is people love. My random stabs at sampling his work haven't been the best, but then there are the few tracks - such as Memories of Green, and the title track of Blade Runner - that I've loved all my life. So I'm reluctant to let go of the attempt, but also don't want to wade through everything.

So far some of the links have been very helpful.
 
Pingu said:
Certain amount of irony there. I can't seem to find what it is people like in Vangelis, so I post about it. You personally can't see the point in my post, so you feel the need to post about it. But your pointless posting is somehow different?

I'm posting because I believe there must be something there that I'm not getting. Musicians sometimes enjoy huge followings for reasons that are more social than the art itself - as in Einaudi and Taylor Swift - but that tends to be fleeting. When someone has a career of decades, and is still receiving invites to write for NASA and major films at the tail end of it, it seems unlikely he was just in the right place at the right time. And since being guided in what people see in something can often lead to the light going on, and then a genuine change in tastes, I was quite sincerely asking what it is people love. My random stabs at sampling his work haven't been the best, but then there are the few tracks - such as Memories of Green, and the title track of Blade Runner - that I've loved all my life. So I'm reluctant to let go of the attempt, but also don't want to wade through everything.

So far some of the links have been very helpful.
Click to expand...
well.. i guess it was more the tone of your post (choice of words e.g.), that triggered me into replying. And it's not pointless, in the sense, that i don't get the post's meaning (as there is no must love requirement at all).
(which i expressed).

Luckely you've answered my question. And i now better understand the motivation for the post, and can read between the written lines (which i found quite harsh towards Vangelis' works, vs Williams).
 
RogiervG said:
I am quite amazed by the opening post, as i really don't see the point.

There is no "need" to "love" a composers work to begin with.
You should also have stopped the discussion earlier on, because you now somehow feel urged to "love" certain musical works from in this case Vangelis. (let alone the "level" of his craft, compared to another composer, which is apples vs banana's)

It's rather simple: you feel attracted/attached to certain music, or you don't.
And what you like now, you might not like as much later on in life. and vice versa. No need for convincing, or a "must" and "need" to like it.

Luckily we all have personal tastes, resulting in all kinds of music (or other art forms). You don't appear to like some of those music pieces, which is totally fine, and to be expected.
Just as i don't like some music pieces. (everyone here really, has dislikes).

----------
So tell me, why you are wanting us to convince you to like Vangelis' works? Or why his works are on the same level as John Williams (to move and continue an odd discussion you had, to this forum?)
You clearly feel no attraction to the majority of works he made. Which is totally fine.
Really, i don't see the point.
Click to expand...
Hmm..I'm not sure that's fair. There are times when I just don't get something and feel that I'm missing out and want to try harder. Mahler is a case in point...but I've given up trying. But I am conscious of many people who's taste I appreciated telling me I am missing out!....It frustrates me a little ..then I listen to it and think..."Nope ghastly waffle.....take it off!"

Best

ed
 
ed buller said:
Hmm..I'm not sure that's fair. There are times when I just don't get something and feel that I'm missing out and want to try harder. Mahler is a case in point...but I've given up trying. But I am conscious of many people who's taste I appreciated telling me I am missing out!....It frustrates me a little ..then I listen to it and think..."Nope ghastly waffle.....take it off!"

Best

ed
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You "given up trying", so there is more need into trying/wanting to like: why do you want(ed) to like it anyway? what's the reason for this "want"? :)
There is simply no attraction for you in his works (Mahler in this case). It's personal after all.
No matter what others say, if you don't like it, you don't.
This has nothing to do with having respect for someone's achievements etc.. You can respect someones work/knowledge/doing.. but not liking the results (pieces).

Bit like this:
others: "This music is great, you need to love it"
you: "with all the argumentation: i don't love it -> you're wrong"

1707047365536.png
(picture illustrates that in essence. Convincing subjective matters are pointless)

And as i said: later in life you might suddenly, like the music more (peoples perception often changes over time, e.g. due to different emotion states, experiences etc). But convincing a subjective matter (music enjoyment), i find not very fruitful over all.

Anyway.. i've got my answer, on the opening post. And i see where Pingu is coming from.. :)

Continue on with the discussion.. (don't mind my interruption) :)
 
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RogiervG said:
You "given up trying", so there is more need into trying/wanting to like: why do you want to like it anyway? what's the reason?. :)
There is simply no attraction for you in his works (Mahler in this case). It's personal after all.
No matter what others say, if you don't like it, you don't.

Bit like this:
others: "This music is great, you need to love it"
you: "with all the argumentation: i don't love it -> you're wrong"

1707047365536.png
(picture illustrates that in essence. Convincing subjective matters are pointless)

And as i said: later in life you might suddenly, like the music more (peoples perception often changes over time, e.g. due to different emotion states, experiences etc). But convincing a subjective matter (music enjoyment), i find not very fruitful over all.

Anyway.. i've got my answer, on the opening post. And i see where Pingu is coming from.. :)

Continue on with the discussion.. (don't mind my interruption) :)
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respectfully you're being far too simplistic. But let's just leave it

Best

ed
 
ed buller said:
respectfully you're being far too simplistic. But let's just leave it

Best

ed
Click to expand...
maybe i am, maybe i am not.. Life is sometimes simpler than people make of it, and sometimes not.
Which one it is, in this case, i am not sure. (maybe there is information not written in the posts to really know)

Indeed let's just leave it. :)
And continue the discussion where it was, before my interruption...

P.s. Although nice to read: there is no need to use "respectfully".
I know you (and myself too), and most members here, are meaning NO harm, disrespect towards each other. (and yes we are emotional creatures, that sometimes get a bit on edge, triggered. But not in the personal attacking way).
 
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