How much practice on trumpet to beat samples?
- Thread starter fakemaxwell
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Tremendouz
Senior Member
True, any instrument can be, but they work great for various kinds of stuff at various skill levels.
Food for thought...
The finest, most accomplished brass players in the world will still go to 'brass gurus' for lessons and make sure that they're still playing correctly given their own particular physical makeup regarding mouthpieces, horns, etc. etc.
So, check back with us in at 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 years from now and let us know how your trumpet playing is coming along.
Learning how to truly play a brass instrument is a life long endeavor.
The finest, most accomplished brass players in the world will still go to 'brass gurus' for lessons and make sure that they're still playing correctly given their own particular physical makeup regarding mouthpieces, horns, etc. etc.
So, check back with us in at 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 years from now and let us know how your trumpet playing is coming along.
Learning how to truly play a brass instrument is a life long endeavor.
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Marcus Millfield
Senior Member
I've seen some of these brass gurus who try to sell mouthpieces to people just getting started based on their physical makeup. That works (to a degree) but gives cause for concern if those same "gurus" are sponsored by one mouthpiece brand and won't even consider solutions from other brands. That's the same as thise "independent" mortgage brokers that have a wallpaper of Bank X on their desktop.
Best to get lessons first and ask your teacher for advice.
Francisco Relaño Peña
Active Member
Leaving these here:
Stringtree
Senior Member
To beat samples or modeling. With no foundation in brass instruments of any kind?
No, this is not a realistic goal unless you really care about the trumpet and spend at least your 10,000 hours.
I played baritone horn and trombone and French horn in high school, so making a trumpet sound sick and languid for an Edward Hopper painting kind of surreal jazz piece, I could fake it. But the trumpet is a whole world of muscle development, breathing, and tone production.
Maybe stick to the samples or sample modeling unless you have a quirky piece that requires a quirky sound.
No, this is not a realistic goal unless you really care about the trumpet and spend at least your 10,000 hours.
I played baritone horn and trombone and French horn in high school, so making a trumpet sound sick and languid for an Edward Hopper painting kind of surreal jazz piece, I could fake it. But the trumpet is a whole world of muscle development, breathing, and tone production.
Maybe stick to the samples or sample modeling unless you have a quirky piece that requires a quirky sound.
José Herring
Lost in Cyberspace
It's so funny. I was actually thinking similar thoughts but with the Violin. Ed quipped about Youtube but I've been following people that are learning instruments and I've come to a conclusion. Adults that don't take lessons can become a mid level player on any instrument in about a year of daily practice of :30 to an 1:00. Adults that do take lessons never make it.
but..........
Having become proficient in an instrument at a high level I was at first mostly self taught and had to unlearn so many bad habits by the time I was in college. It took a master level teacher to get me up from mid level talent to high level professional where people actually take notice.
So, if you're aiming to do basic parts inside a brass section just to add a little life to your samples, a year and you could probably do it. If you're looking to take the lead and do John Williams, or Strauss or Shostakovich level trumpet playing. If you've reached your mid 20's history shows that it's already too late. But I guess if you start practicing 1 to 2 hours a day in a decade you could possibly do it, but honestly only kids have time for that. Unless you're rich and can lock yourself in a practice room for 10 years.
It's not that learning an instrument is hard. It's learning it well enough that people don't think you suck, the bar is really, really high. Some humans are really capable. And the really capable ones have made it so that us hard working grind it out types barely have enough time to reach a high level.
but..........
Having become proficient in an instrument at a high level I was at first mostly self taught and had to unlearn so many bad habits by the time I was in college. It took a master level teacher to get me up from mid level talent to high level professional where people actually take notice.
So, if you're aiming to do basic parts inside a brass section just to add a little life to your samples, a year and you could probably do it. If you're looking to take the lead and do John Williams, or Strauss or Shostakovich level trumpet playing. If you've reached your mid 20's history shows that it's already too late. But I guess if you start practicing 1 to 2 hours a day in a decade you could possibly do it, but honestly only kids have time for that. Unless you're rich and can lock yourself in a practice room for 10 years.
It's not that learning an instrument is hard. It's learning it well enough that people don't think you suck, the bar is really, really high. Some humans are really capable. And the really capable ones have made it so that us hard working grind it out types barely have enough time to reach a high level.
The legendary trombonist Jay Friedman (principal trombone of the Chicago Symphony) has said that it will take about 5 years of serious study on anything to become highly proficient, whether that be a brass instrument, an equestrian rider, etc.
But that's serious, devoted study. Many hours a day for 5 years. And that's just to get you up to an acceptable level that could make you ready for professional work.
He says that scientific studies are there to back that up.
And, being just 'highly proficient' isn't good enough when it comes to actually being a professional at the highest levels. Professional orchestral players on any instrument are at a whole other higher level of ability and achievement that we should all just marvel at.
Also, the late world famous renowned operatic Tenor Jon Vickers said that it's 'easy' to get to the top. The hardest part is trying to stay 'on top' once you reach that level of musicianship and technical knowhow.
He said that's when the Real Work begins....the work of trying to stay 'on top' and in shape.
So....cheer's to our fellow human beings who show us what is possible!
Humans' will never be replaced when it comes to true artistry.
Trying to replicate real trumpets with samples will only be that; a semi-replication. Never the real thing.
But that's serious, devoted study. Many hours a day for 5 years. And that's just to get you up to an acceptable level that could make you ready for professional work.
He says that scientific studies are there to back that up.
And, being just 'highly proficient' isn't good enough when it comes to actually being a professional at the highest levels. Professional orchestral players on any instrument are at a whole other higher level of ability and achievement that we should all just marvel at.
Also, the late world famous renowned operatic Tenor Jon Vickers said that it's 'easy' to get to the top. The hardest part is trying to stay 'on top' once you reach that level of musicianship and technical knowhow.
He said that's when the Real Work begins....the work of trying to stay 'on top' and in shape.
So....cheer's to our fellow human beings who show us what is possible!
Humans' will never be replaced when it comes to true artistry.
Trying to replicate real trumpets with samples will only be that; a semi-replication. Never the real thing.
richiebee
Active Member
I played the trumpet for ~25 years. Even though I played live semi-pro in stage bands and pop/funk/jazz groups, and also recorded as a side musician on a number of albums, I never felt worthy of solo recording. I gave up the trumpet because it requires daily practice, of the kind of dedication I couldn't give. Even if I got the horn out and practiced daily for a couple of years (its been probably 12 or 13 since I played it), I would say I'd get better results from playing on EWI with a VST like SWAM.
Trumpet was my main instrument growing up and it’s how I got into music. I probably spent a total of ten years from 6th grade to college playing and entered college as a Trumpet performance major. Multiple ensembles, multiple private teachers, and I practiced hours daily.
I had beautiful tone but just could not master consistent technical ease with notes above high A. I probably hit a high C only 5 times in my entire playing “career.” Hated the way it made my teeth/mouth feel. I actually started writing music and conducting/became a drum major because I absolutely hated playing on the field during marching band. It’s a beast of an instrument, and I absolutely do not miss playing it one bit haha.
The ensemble experience was worth it and invaluable to my eventual composing career. But if I’m being honest and had to do it over again I really wish I had taken piano lessons and mastered that instead. That’s hindsight though. Mad respect to anyone who has a career as a professional Trumpeter! It is not an easy instrument. The next time I play Trumpet will be in hell.
I had beautiful tone but just could not master consistent technical ease with notes above high A. I probably hit a high C only 5 times in my entire playing “career.” Hated the way it made my teeth/mouth feel. I actually started writing music and conducting/became a drum major because I absolutely hated playing on the field during marching band. It’s a beast of an instrument, and I absolutely do not miss playing it one bit haha.
The ensemble experience was worth it and invaluable to my eventual composing career. But if I’m being honest and had to do it over again I really wish I had taken piano lessons and mastered that instead. That’s hindsight though. Mad respect to anyone who has a career as a professional Trumpeter! It is not an easy instrument. The next time I play Trumpet will be in hell.
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Marcus Millfield
Senior Member
There's too much focus on high blowers these days. I get that in your case (high C and below) it is necessary to be able to have a consistent upper register, but the (testosterone fueled) addiction to high blowing is grown beyond proportion. I had students who asked me after a few lessons when they'd learn the "double high c"... As if you're not worth it as a player without this insane high register which most of the times sound like crap if you're not Maynard Ferguson anyway (and even then...)
/rant
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richiebee
Active Member
I'm not a fan of the high note soloists like Maynard Ferguson who play(ed) popular songs tastelessly, and when analyzed, with a really high rate of wrong notes, cracks and bad or non-existent articulations.
But there's something about a good lead player who works as part of a team, that can really make a huge difference in that intense, fiery music. Jerry Hey, Wayne Bergeron, Chris Jaudes... worth their weight in gold.
outland
Active Member
This comment says it all: it depends in which context you want to use the trumpet. First, if starting from scratch on a real trumpet, then don't expect to record yourself playing the physical horn in any context any sooner than five years with very hard work (unless your standards are very low.) Second (and this pertains as much to which VI one picks,) in what context do you intend to use the trumpet? Do not attempt to use Symphonic brass collections in a jazz or pop context as it will sound too "pretty." and, if you will, stilted. SWAM and Sample Modeling have great models that are fairly flexible (especially SWAM, while the Sample Modeling has more key switch alternate articulations and releases) and for, say, a "big band-ish" section, one might want to mix several from both libraries. Consider as well the "Screaming Trumpet" library from Realitone for the lead trumpet; it actually has the samples and many keyswitch alternate articulations and releases of Wayne Bergeron as its basis. And remember to use a EWI, WX5 or the like as a controller. I use the WX5 as it is easily switchable between CC2 and CC11 (particularly useful for Screaming Trumpet,) and has a programmable pitch bend at the reed (very helpful.) Of course, for solo trumpets, either SWAM or Sample Modeling will do fine, each has its strength. Everyone probably has a "decent" harmon muted Miles Davis sound, but a wind controller will bring you much closer to getting the phrasing right. I find the SWAM to be a bit easier to get a Davis style open trumpet sound, though I'm still working on it. Conte Candoli style solo playing (i.e., basic big band non-screaming soloing) is a bit easier with the Sample Modeling.
outland
Active Member
In Maynard's defense (and, no, I don't "prefer" his style of playing either,) when he started with Stan Kenton, he was MUCH better and played really well through at least the mid-1960s. After that, various issues and habits noticeably took their toll. He did remain, however, a totally wonderful human being. I remember that in 1978, he came to see the Stan Kenton band (Stan was in very poor health and this was actually his last tour; he closed down the band that August for the last time.) He spent quite a bit of time with Stan and bought those of us in the band a keg of beer. And, he (like Woody Herman, but, unfortunately, unlike Stan) also paid his sidemen very well.
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Marcus Millfield
Senior Member
I agree on both your points. I've heard a lot of good lead players and principals over the years and no matter their skill on the instrument, the best of them are teamplayers. A section cannot function without that cohesion.
Although Maynard had a real flexible high register, I didn't like the often laserlike sound nor the way he used it. And I'm not a fan of his music either. But as @outland notes he was a wonderful human being and I do like his work with Kenton. Not really a fan of Kenton's style, but he did have some novel ideas.
shropshirelad
Senior Member
My son's been awarded a scholarship to study trumpet at The Royal Conservatoire of Scotland - he starts his first year next week. He started learning at 9 years old - he's 18 now, obviously plays well but is still far from the finished article! It's been incredible to hear the improvement from year to year, even when thinking he was 'there' and couldn't improve further. Exciting times ahead for him!
Marcus Millfield
Senior Member
Congrats! You must be so proud!
Double Helix
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Francisco Relaño Peña
Active Member
This is pure madness. It's already ridiculous on violin, and you can play certain notes on open strings.
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