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MacPro 5,1 Relic: what to do with it.....

No Big Sur is working fine- something a bit odd with the Finder shortcut in the sidebar to the Downloads folder but hey, that i can cope with!
It's just that I don't want to go through it all again for as long as possible :)

The Nvidia thing- yes I remeber reading about the dispute with Apple- I think it only affects after Monterey onwards though.
 
No Big Sur is working fine- something a bit odd with the Finder shortcut in the sidebar to the Downloads folder but hey, that i can cope with!
It's just that I don't want to go through it all again for as long as possible :)

The Nvidia thing- yes I remeber reading about the dispute with Apple- I think it only affects after Monterey onwards though.
I am sooo with you on that. Whether Big Sur or Monterey, I am NOT doing this again. Life is too short and making music is way more important to me. Can't believe I used to be into all this tech stuff :laugh:

EDIT: A warm "Thank you" to everyone who chimed in. Really. I am going to try the Graphic Card route as suggested by pinki and take it from there. I'll post again if anything changes or to let you know the results!
 
I'm pretty sure you will get there, it's just a standard Mac after all and OCLP is amazingly developed of late.
It's worth it because the more we wait the more the whole M thing will be further down the line and hitting a sweet spot. An M1 is going to feel old soon.

I'm hoping to go in at M4 :)

Hit me up on PM if you need help- but for now get a card ordered.
 
What MOTU midi interface are you using that’s unstable with latest Mac Pro?
I have 4 x Motu audio Interfaces using the PCI 424 card, Motu do not want do upgrade there driver so they work after the Mac Pro 5.1
They want to sell their new audio interface ! f...
I have bought a new audio interface BUT NOT FROM MOTU
They want to play with the fire, they lost a client
When needed I will use my MacPro 5.1 as a VEP slave but at the moment my Mac Book Pro is doing the job with my 100 tracks symphonic orchestra
I have to test Dolby ATMOS 7.1.4 and see if is working ok with my MBP
 
you do not need a flashed graphics card rx-560 should work fine. In fact i have heard it argued that flashing it might cause problems with open core but don’t quote me on that.

First question I have is whether you installed Mojave in the correct way so that the firmware was brought completely up to date on your 5,1? You needed to make sure to upgrade the hard way through several versions before Mojave, without skipping any. No drive cloning. This is so that the updater would spot you need the firmware updated and update it.

And yes during some of those updates it was a little weird with a non flashed metal card since we would not see the boot screen and as I vaguely recall there was one step where we had to just let it sit over light with a black screen or maybe I read about some other little work around to get past that update, sorry I can’t remember the details but google is your friend on that.

So its crucial your firmware got updated. Check that first.

Secondly, dos dudes patcher should be very easy but it’s been quite a long time since i used it. What other hardware is on this machine? Frankly it should just work. If it doesn’t then I suspect there is something Amis with your Mojave starting condition. That could be the firmware already mentioned or it could be file system related. Apple introduced a series of radical changes to both the file system as well as various hidden partitions and the way a Mac boots up, or finds recovery partitions, If you did some drive cloning shortcut somewhere along the line then all bets are off.

Assuming you have the final firmware and the metal card. then install Catalina using dos dude patcher on a totally wiped clean drive. Try that.

All that being said, if you want to get Monterey going, which I reccomend, then you will be wanting to do open core anyway. In which case don’t waste time with dos dudes patcher.

For opencore there are a number of different approaches for getting it working. You actually do not need a flashed graphics card or boot screen at all. Opencore provides its own boot screen. I can’t advise you on Martin lo’s stuff because I don’t use it. It’s too much of a black box for me. I chose rather to manually setup opencore as mentioned top of this thread. They way I have at least some idea of what might be going wrong.

Also there are some monitors that apparently can be weird. For example I used to have some weird issue where it would be locked up with a black screen even though I had hit command R and expecting recovery mode. then i would unplug my second monitor and suddenly I’d see recovery mode on the main monitor. The main was dvi and the second was older, well I don’t remember the details about that now either it was a long time ago and haven’t had that problem for a longtime but it’s one example where the black screen makes you think you need a flashed graphics card or something but you really don’t and that’s usually not the issue. I think the only time you might wish you had it was for updating to Mojave for that final firmware update the boot screen is what prompted you to update the firmware or something like that. It’s been a while. Google around. Sorry I can’t remember more now.


The truth is open core is not for everyone. It’s not always easy and people get in trouble. Macrumors forum is much better place to find experts far better then me. You have to take ownership of understanding what you’re doing. If you aren’t able to do that I reccomend you leave it in Mojave or at most use dos dude patcher and skip using opencore. Buy a new Mac when you can.
 
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you do not need a flashed graphics card rx-560 should work fine. In fact i have heard it argued that flashing it might cause problems with open core but don’t quote me on that.

First question I have is whether you installed Mojave in the correct way so that the firmware was brought completely up to date on your 5,1? You needed to make sure to upgrade the hard way through several versions before Mojave, without skipping any. No drive cloning. This is so that the updater would spot you need the firmware updated and update it.

And yes during some of those updates it was a little weird with a non flashed metal card since we would not see the boot screen and as I vaguely recall there was one step where we had to just let it sit over light with a black screen or maybe I read about some other little work around to get past that update, sorry I can’t remember the details but google is your friend on that.

So its crucial your firmware got updated. Check that first.

Secondly, dos dudes patcher should be very easy but it’s been quite a long time since i used it. What other hardware is on this machine? Frankly it should just work. If it doesn’t then I suspect there is something Amis with your Mojave starting condition. That could be the firmware already mentioned or it could be file system related. Apple introduced a series of radical changes to both the file system as well as various hidden partitions and the way a Mac boots up, or finds recovery partitions, If you did some drive cloning shortcut somewhere along the line then all bets are off.

Assuming you have the final firmware and the metal card. then install Catalina using dos dude patcher on a totally wiped clean drive. Try that.

All that being said, if you want to get Monterey going, which I reccomend, then you will be wanting to do open core anyway. In which case don’t waste time with dos dudes patcher.

For opencore there are a number of different approaches for getting it working. You actually do not need a flashed graphics card or boot screen at all. Opencore provides its own boot screen. I can’t advise you on Martin lo’s stuff because I don’t use it. It’s too much of a black box for me. I chose rather to manually setup opencore as mentioned top of this thread. They way I have at least some idea of what might be going wrong.

Also there are some monitors that apparently can be weird. For example I used to have some weird issue where it would be locked up with a black screen even though I had hit command R and expecting recovery mode. then i would unplug my second monitor and suddenly I’d see recovery mode on the main monitor. The main was dvi and the second was older, well I don’t remember the details about that now either it was a long time ago and haven’t had that problem for a longtime but it’s one example where the black screen makes you think you need a flashed graphics card or something but you really don’t and that’s usually not the issue. I think the only time you might wish you had it was for updating to Mojave for that final firmware update the boot screen is what prompted you to update the firmware or something like that. It’s been a while. Google around. Sorry I can’t remember more now.


The truth is open core is not for everyone. It’s not always easy and people get in trouble. Macrumors forum is much better place to find experts far better then me. You have to take ownership of understanding what you’re doing. If you aren’t able to do that I reccomend you leave it in Mojave or at most use dos dude patcher and skip using opencore. Buy a new Mac when you can.
I appreciate your response, thank you.

Mojave was installed about 3 years ago and has been working truly flawlessly with this same RX560 card in that time. Firmware is the required 144.0.0.0.0 and yes, I've definitely gone the Carbon Copy Cloner route (so that could certainly be a/the issue as well. I can try a clean install too, but Big Sur is functional on the old ATI card).

I have made sure to read as much as I could stomach on the Macrumours forum about the process and that's where I came across the tailored Martin Lo install for cMPs. I uninstalled all needless harware (Caldigit USB3/Sata card, PCI-E SSDs) and removed all but one 16GB stick of RAM, as well as disconnected everything but Ethernet and monitor. I tried 3 different monitors to exclude compatibility issues there.

In retrospect, the dosdude Catalina install was likely hampered by the Samsung 870 EVO incompatibility issue, which I only noticed once I had moved on to trying with Big Sur. I now have a Graphics Card on order to try again. The fact that Big Sur boots fine with my old ATI but not the RX560, for me definitely points to the latter being an issue. So I'm going to sit tight and ignore Catalina for the time being. If Big Sur with a flashed card doesn't work out, I'll try dosdude Catalina one more time with my RX560 and the new, flashed card.

And as far as Open Core not being for everyone: definitely. Hot-rodding this thing isn't my choice of hobby - I'd rather just upgrade the system, but as I said, I won't to give my partner a chance to catch up.

Thanks for your advice!
 
Sorry to disagree with Dewdman42 but an RX 560 will not work…well maybe ‘manually’ but that is not the way to go for people who just want to get on and make music. I was in exactly this situation and getting a flashed boot screen card solved everything instantly.

I also would avoid the Martin Lo way and just use vanilla OCLP with the tutorials from Mr Macintosh.
 
Sorry to disagree with Dewdman42 but an RX 560 will not work…well maybe ‘manually’ but that is not the way to go for people who just want to get on and make music. I was in exactly this situation and getting a flashed boot screen card solved everything instantly.

I also would avoid the Martin Lo way and just use vanilla OCLP with the tutorials from Mr Macintosh.
Duly noted. As I have a working install of Big Sur, I'll just pop in the new card and the SSD with BS and see what happens. Should I need to reinstall BS, I will go the OCLP route!
 
I have 4 x Motu audio Interfaces using the PCI 424 card, Motu do not want do upgrade there driver so they work after the Mac Pro 5.1
I hear you, but must note that it has been 20 years since the 424 and 2408mk3 was released. And you can still use it with your 5,1, maybe just not with a hacked OS not supported by Apple.

I greatly respect continuing use of the 5,1 (I used the heck out of my 4,1-5,1 quad to hex hack, then my 5,1 8core that I converted to 12core with an RX460 Metal GPU running Sierra, then Mojave until the Mac Studio was released last year), but Thunderbolt has been here since 2011. After so many years, is reasonable to expect MOTU to continue to support edge case uses of their old gear?

Biggest problem with MOTU now is they can't build their Pro Audio interfaces for lack of component supplies. Their gear is still some of the most performant and cost-effective out there.
 
To repeat: a flashed graphics card will not help one iota. OpenCore provides its own boot screen.

The only time I can remember the graphics card boot screen being a requirement was for the upgrade that installed one of the last firmwares. After that it has never been needed whatsoever. And some people I trust about open core often advise against using a flashed graphics card. That brings just one more customization to the mix. And it doesn't solve anything.

The key to Open Core success is to try to make your machine as generic and vanilla as possible, so that it will work with very vanilla and basic settings and no special tweaks required just for your case, that you have to go out there and figure it out on your own. You want to copy the work of others.

Martin Lo and some others tried to figure out clever ways to build tweakable configurations that can support all kinds of hardware variations. That is helpful if you can set it up right..or in some cases you will be running a more highly hacked version of MacOS in order to utilize some particular graphics card or old bluetooth or something that just can't work in a vanilla way. Martin Lo did work a lot of that out, but there are so many variations out there it soon become troublesome to sort through all that too.

Regarding OCLP vs Martin Lo. OCLP is the future. I would personally go with that if I were you and if you are commmited to OpenCore. OCLP essentially queries your machine and attempts to do automatically what Martin Lo did early by hand that seemed to work for a lot of people with certain hardware combinations. it Hacks your system more in order to support what you have. What I found when I used it is that it worked, but it definitely hacked way more stuff then it needed to, in order to be safe across more variations. So I prefer to use a vanilla install with the most minimal hacks possible. People don't want to have to get their hands dirty with OpenCore, they want OCLP to do it automatically for them, and that's fine I get that, but one day it will just stop working and you'll be SOL with no way to know why not.

The Reason RX580 was so popular was because Apple officially named that card at one point as a good metal card to use, which inferred it would provide video drivers for it MacOS for the foreseeable future...which it did at least long enough to support the trashcan with a PCI harness. The RX560 is basically a slower version of the same card. I don't have an actual RX560 admittedly, so I can only speak theoretically, but I can't see any reason why it would not work just as well as the RX580 does, but check the net for other people using it to find out. the RX580 absolutely does not need to be flashed in order to use OpenCore.

I want to make another caution. it is definitely possible to brick your mac when you start messing around with OpenCore. Not common, but it's possible. You have been warned. You should absolutely think right now about getting a BootRom backup, and ideally get a never-booted image rebuilt for you for a small fee to keep around. I am not going into the details of that now, I have written about it earliré in this thread. But if you don't have a ROM backup yet, you are playing with fire. You've been warned.

Again this is one of the dangers of trying to use prefabbed, automatic solutions like Martin Lo or OCLP... you just want it to work without thinking, I get it. But you are dancing with the devil and never know what you're doing when you do that...and yes...it's possible to brick your mac. At a minimum get a backup ROM image and keep it around just in case. I have spoken about all of this earlier in the thread.
 
Regarding MOTU, I feel your pain. I had a PCI424 setup for years. best low latency ever. Eventually MOTU wasn't going to support it any more, I saw the writing on the wall and sold all my PCI 424 gear while I still could. Hope someone with a PC is loving it. In the future I will still consider MOTU gear because they make great gear! But I will wait until I buy an apple silicon mac before re-investing in the hardware for the next decade of my life. Simple as that. But if you depend on PCI-424 then I would not upgrade your mac at all, leave it as is until you have your next audio solution in mind...its not going to work with newer MacOS and open core.
 
Mojave was installed about 3 years ago and has been working truly flawlessly with this same RX560 card in that time. Firmware is the required 144.0.0.0.0

GREAT! That eliminates that as an issue.


and yes, I've definitely gone the Carbon Copy Cloner route (so that could certainly be a/the issue as well. I can try a clean install too, but Big Sur is functional on the old ATI card).

newer versions of macos can be hacked to work with the old ATI card! But occasionally the screen will look jumbled, some software or feature may have a graphics problem when it tries to use Metal that isn't there. I would focus on using a proper Metal card. Also everything runs MUCH faster and better on metal.


I have made sure to read as much as I could stomach on the Macrumours forum about the process and that's where I came across the tailored Martin Lo install for cMPs.
hehe yea, I hear you. It's the wild west.


I uninstalled all needless harware (Caldigit USB3/Sata card, PCI-E SSDs) and removed all but one 16GB stick of RAM, as well as disconnected everything but Ethernet and monitor. I tried 3 different monitors to exclude compatibility issues there.
Good idea to break it down and re-introduce things later to see. Just for the record, i am using vanilla Open Core with generic settings, several ssd's on a pci card, a Lynx pci audio card, RX580(a specific one named by apple as compatible), updated bluetooth card, 96GB of ram same as before, all data drive bays full of hard drives or ssd's. Haven't seen a gpu boot screen in years and it's been running great for years. Admittedly while doing opencore updates, there can be some times when you have to look at the blackscreen and wait...or know to press cmd-R and wait...etc..instead of seeing apple's boot menu. But it works fine. At one point I was looking into getting it flashed but certain people I trust advised against it, so I never did. And I didn't really need to I was just being OCD at the time.

I would not expect your USB3 card to be a problem but never know. same with your ssd's on pci card. Use all your ram too.



In retrospect, the dosdude Catalina install was likely hampered by the Samsung 870 EVO incompatibility issue, which I only noticed once I had moved on to trying with Big Sur. I now have a Graphics Card on order to try again. The fact that Big Sur boots fine with my old ATI but not the RX560, for me definitely points to the latter being an issue.

Boots fine with what? its that a martin lo hack? Well anyway, nothing wrong with duplicating Martin's exact hardware specifications and using his configuration. In theory that should work. That's exactly why I bought an RX580 way back when. I know they got to be expensive though. But the RX580 definitely works.

Like I said, newer macos can be hacked to run on the ATI...but being non-metal, anything after Mojave is just rolling the dice as to when you'll have some kind of metal incompatibility issue.

I think I lucked out being able to buy the RX580 when I did. A lot of people are using various Nvidia cards and other things and having to figure out how to hack opencore/macos to make them work as apple drops support. that's where OCLP and martin lo can be helpful.

So I'm going to sit tight and ignore Catalina for the time being. If Big Sur with a flashed card doesn't work out, I'll try dosdude Catalina one more time with my RX560 and the new, flashed card.

flashed card won't help. If it doesn't work, its something else. But it's possible that a different card that matches martin lo's favored configuration may work with his setup out of the box.

I will also say that at the time I found Catalina quite usable...it was a worthwhile upgrade for sure...but then Big Sur I skipped because of problem reports at the time. Monterey, however, has been extremely good for me. Fast and solid. it's the last you can realistically do also. If you're going OpenCore, try to get to Monterey.
 
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Thanks for the advice @Dewdman42. I'm keeping an open mind and will tinker with all the suggestions when the time comes (and work allows for another few days of tinkering!). Kinda wish I'd sprung for the 580 instead of the 560. Tough to find much info at all on the 560.
 
Well based on the fact the 560 works with Mojave I personally think it will work. There could be some other reason you’re having a black screen stuck and not sure why. I used to have to unplug my old monitor during updates or maybe the other way around, otherwise recovery mode wouldn’t show up. It was way more fiddly a couple years ago when I first started using open core but under Monterey that particular issue seemed to go away. That was probably a bug in the rx5xx driver provided by Apple that was fixed with monterey related to dual monitors. Just a guess.

The boot screen only comes up if and when you are wanting to see something in your screen to prompt you about using recovery mode, or booting from other devices. That’s it. Flashing your card doesn’t offer any other functionality than that. But basically most of the time you don’t even need to see that and opencore provides one for you also. Flashing your gpu increases the risk of driver incompatibility or even conflicts with opencore requiring more special configuration.
 
I hear you, but must note that it has been 20 years since the 424 and 2408mk3 was released. And you can still use it with your 5,1, maybe just not with a hacked OS not supported by Apple.

I greatly respect continuing use of the 5,1 (I used the heck out of my 4,1-5,1 quad to hex hack, then my 5,1 8core that I converted to 12core with an RX460 Metal GPU running Sierra, then Mojave until the Mac Studio was released last year), but Thunderbolt has been here since 2011. After so many years, is reasonable to expect MOTU to continue to support edge case uses of their old gear?

Biggest problem with MOTU now is they can't build their Pro Audio interfaces for lack of component supplies. Their gear is still some of the most performant and cost-effective out there.
The approach of Motu since many years was to sell a card compatible with each generation of Mac.
So you just had to buy the new card when you buy a new Mac.
The audio interfaces connected did not need to be upgraded. I Had a large configuration with for interfaces. ( 1x 1296, 2x2408, 1 x 24i)
This was a great approach !
This configuration was great for a little studio, I have now many synth sleeping. I use AU synth instead !
 
The approach of Motu since many years was to sell a card compatible with each generation of Mac.
So you just had to buy the new card when you buy a new Mac.
The audio interfaces connected did not need to be upgraded. I Had a large configuration with for interfaces. ( 1x 1296, 2x2408, 1 x 24i)
This was a great approach !
Yes it was!

I went thru PCI324, 424x and 424 PCIe cards with 2408s of several generations with Macs starting from the G3 era IIRC. Switched to a Firewire 828 mkII and laptop in 2003 after my studio and all my gear burned up in a wildfire, then kept using the 828 with ADAT Expanders after the studio was rebuilt. The 828 MkII was replaced with an 828es a couple of years ago, connected via Thunderbolt now.
This configuration was great for a little studio, I have now many synth sleeping. I use AU synth instead !
I'm sure you know this, but you can still use your old MOTU interfaces as stand alone converters if you have some extra ADAT ports available on your current interface. As you note, with VIs, the need for all those inputs has diminished, unless you are tracking drums!
 
How do you do this if you do not use the MacPro 5.1 ?
Check this out:


Editing to add a former MOTU Employee's comments on that thread that summarizes:

There has been three generations of the 2408 interface (2408, 2408mk2, and 2408mk3).

All three generations work as a standalone format converter.

All three generations have 24 bit throughput on all digital connections.

The 2408 and 2408mk2 operate at 44.1/48khz sample rate.

The 2408mk3 operates up to 96khz sample rate.

The difference between the 2408 and 2408mk2 is the analog connections.
The 2408 has RCA jacks (unbalanced) that are referenced to -10db line level. The converters are 20 bit.
The 2408mk2 has TRS (balanced) I/O referenced to +4db line level, with 8db additional headroom. The 2408mk2 has 24 bit converters.

The 2408mk3 has TRS I/O referenced to +4db with 14db additional headroom.

All three generations work with the PCI 424 card.

The 2408mk3 does not work with the older PCI 324 card.
 
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