RAM optimization / Orchestral template

Guy Rowland said:

Like I say, I'm not out to convert anyone here with their own method. If t works for you, that's all that matters. But for the OP or anyone looking to set up a serious template for the first time or unhappy with what they have, I'd definitely recommend looking at all the pros and cons with eyes wide open. There's a lot of hidden bear traps in templates, the more aware of them that you are going in, the better you'll be able to make a choice that works for you.

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Guy, thank you for sharing your videos and your valuable advice. It is a great source of information.
I believe the preamble to this post is to assume that the topic is not about proving a strategy right or wrong, but about finding a model that suits the specific user's workflow.

That said, I find it super interesting and instructive to discover everyone's way of thinking, which often corresponds with the type of music produced.

The templates of Trevor Morris (100% DISABLED), or Leo & Zch (Hybrid), and even more the HUGE comparison work of David Kudell, are gifts which allow us to be aware of what it is possible to do and This is an excellent starting point.

Thank you again to all dear colleagues!

My template specifications (objectives):

• Load (empty) quickly when opened: 30 sec to 3 min max.
• Correct latency (512 buffer max).
• Quickly load instruments
• Adapts to my audio printing routing.
• Is compatible with my Hardware.

First of all, the good news is that AIO computer is now possible, which was my first goal that I set for myself by initially jumping into the void (!).
The other good news is that the Macstudio Ultra is a machine that will be able to meet my needs. David Kudell's tests show that this computer takes only 5 "38 to load 101GB (!). It's insane. For the same quantity on my PC, I think it must take at least 15-25 min (depending on the instruments and which in itself is quite fast).

I think I will base my template on a model that I know and that I have used for more than ten years, that is to say CUBASE + VEP SERVER BUT on a single machine, although the DISABLED tracks model presents some undeniable advantages.
This will not prevent me from incrementing certain things in VST DISABLE in addition, within my configuration, as the work progresses.

What I like most about the DISABLED template: (y) shortcut for activating instruments very fast way.
What I like least with VEP server: the damn automation cumbersome length to create manually for the same function. I mean it’s slave labor!

For me, the choice of model is based on two parameters:
• The habit
• My audio printing tracks routing which is more efficient with VEP Server.
We can debate on the why or how, but at this point in the post, I would like to stay focused on the main lines.
I quickly (for a str 5tet exemple) analyzed the influence of my "audio printing routing" on the two models (DISABLED vs. VEP Server) and I think that the VEP Server will be more consistent (modularity) and more efficient in terms of resources (see routing diagram).



Guy, has your method of assigning CC via VEP automation evolved since the release of Cubase 13 and VEP 7?

I work with 3 screens, one of which is dedicated to the VEP Server, so initially activating things manually (as I have always done) will be possible.

About Hosted in VEP, I think I need to find something in between regarding the number of kontakt (or sine & co...) instances on a single VEP track so that when it is activated, the data in RAM is not too large and therefore the time is not too long. . Afterwards I can also use the purged samples functionality within the players (kontakt / sine / SA…).
All this remains to be defined and my brain is racing with billions of parameters to take into account.

Let's say that I will confess my moods daily on this page and that psychoanalytic critiques will be welcome. See you soon.

Guy Rowland said:

Okay, you poked the bear.

If it works for you, wonderful. It didn't work for me, and here's why.

I do a lot of versions - I reach a point and save a version, move on knowing I can revert if I need to (I usually don't, but I like knowing I can). I also have auto-save, and five versions. Cubase does crash sometimes for me, again I need the safety net. I also have my project folder in Dropbox. More safety.

I found that I could approach 1gb for each session file on disabled Cubase. Let's say I have 10 versions of a cue, 5 autosaved versions - that's 50gb. For one cue. It all becomes big, clumsy, unwieldy, and slow, and you'll eventually likely reach the limit on your Dropbox plan.

Now yes, I could get a macro to clean up one project file and delete all the undisabled tracks. What about the other 49? Do I need to do all that housekeeping permanently?

Then there's the other benefits of VE Pro. It's about twice as efficient as Cubase as a host, and if you are working on different projects with the same template, you can switch between them in a snap (or as snappy as Cubase gets - the less active instruments in the DAW the better). All your active instrument tracks stay open in VEP, ready to go and connected as soon as the next project loads.

The initial load of my entire template in VE PRO is circa 10 seconds (about 1,500 instruments IIRC). Enabling an instrument is as quick or quicker than in Cubase, usually just a few seconds per instrument.

In use, it's pure joy. Small Cubase project files, I run uncoupled so autosaves are quick, and RAM use is tiny. I rarely go anywhere near 32gb, never mind 128gb. (I always save the VEP instruments purged where possible, as you say background loading in Kontakt and some other players is terrific). As for the viframe, I use the one for everything, it's pretty easy to add new instruments as I get them.

The only downside with VEP disabled - it DOES take a long time to set up in the first place. You have to put in the hours. But the payback is tremendous. They did help with some keyboard modifiers in VEP 7 for auto-incrementing midi channels etc in the automation pane.

Like I say, I'm not out to convert anyone here with their own method. If t works for you, that's all that matters. But for the OP or anyone looking to set up a serious template for the first time or unhappy with what they have, I'd definitely recommend looking at all the pros and cons with eyes wide open. There's a lot of hidden bear traps in templates, the more aware of them that you are going in, the better you'll be able to make a choice that works for you.

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Hello Guy
I do not doubt the effectiveness of VEP7
but it's the implementation that scares me
because when I see the time it took for create my deactivated tracks in Cubase.
In addition, all my visibility PLEs and my macros were created based on disabled tracks.
The other important point for me is using a touch screen with the 14bitMIDI Sherlock Plugin
and I only have one button to activate and deactivate a track
With VEP I cannot do this function other than with 2 keys
and I deactivate in VEP but not in Cubase
and it is this point which would force me to rethink all my PLES and macros

Regarding Trevor Morris… seems like he went back to VEP pretty quickly.

ballagnat said:

Guy, has your method of assigning CC via VEP automation evolved since the release of Cubase 13 and VEP 7?

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Sorry I missed this, but the simple answer is No! Once set (many years ago now) it continues to work extremely well, so I don't touch it.

Freudon33 said:

Hello Guy
I do not doubt the effectiveness of VEP7
but it's the implementation that scares me
because when I see the time it took for create my deactivated tracks in Cubase.
In addition, all my visibility PLEs and my macros were created based on disabled tracks.
The other important point for me is using a touch screen with the 14bitMIDI Sherlock Plugin
and I only have one button to activate and deactivate a track
With VEP I cannot do this function other than with 2 keys
and I deactivate in VEP but not in Cubase
and it is this point which would force me to rethink all my PLES and macros

Click to expand...

I totally understand if you are invested in one method which takes a lot of work, you don't want to switch. I'm exactly the same.

And this would be even harder to do than your Cubase deactivated tracks route. If it's working well enough for you, I'd stick with it.

FWIW I use 2 pads on my keyboard to enable / disable the VEP channel, and the midi track is always enabled since it consumes practically zero resources, so it's just one click for me.

Guy Rowland said:

I totally understand if you are invested in one method which takes a lot of work, you don't want to switch. I'm exactly the same.

And this would be even harder to do than your Cubase deactivated tracks route. If it's working well enough for you, I'd stick with it.

FWIW I use 2 pads on my keyboard to enable / disable the VEP channel, and the midi track is always enabled since it consumes practically zero resources, so it's just one click for me.

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Hello
Thank you for your reply
This confirms what I can do with my touch screen
so 2 buttons to enable or disable tracks
Another quick question
How do you do it for multiple instances?
since deactivation will only be done on midi port 1
If I have several midi tracks connected to this multi in VEP
depending on the track chosen this will not trigger the midi cc
for enable or disable tracks

Example:

Just now with my tracks deactivated in Cubase I have always proceeded like this
in order to have access either to the separate articulations or to the keyswitches
Then maybe I'm going in the wrong direction
I already have VEP6 but I no longer used it because I often lost midi ports and at the time I had a configuration that was far too tight
I just downloaded the trial version of VEP7 and I now have a good configuration
processor 5950x 128gb ram SSD M2 2 x 2tb
and today for the little that I tried to set up I already have bugs with joints that don't play

Freudon33 said:

How do you do it for multiple instances?

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The buttons on my controller are set to the two highest notes in the midi spec - one enables, one disables. On bar 3 I have a muted clip with the enable note on every VE Pro track (I usually start the real audio at bar 9). Then when I'm finished for the session I unmute the clips on tracks I'm actually using. Next time I load the project, I just play bar 3, and then all the VEPro tracks I'm using load up in a single hit.

cyrilblanc said:

Rules of dumb :
- Using VE PRO is using more CPU than having instrument inserted in your DAW (with Logic)

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While technically speaking, on the surface, yes, using another app uses more CPU. Instruments use the same CPU whether loaded in Cubase, Logic, or VEP. And VEP itself uses CPU cycles. But you are missing an important part of this: VEP handles the distribution of those instruments better than most DAWs.

This seems to be a pretty common consensus. VEP better utilizes multiple cores than the host, and also gives you the benefit of organizing those instruments through instances.

I'm actually working right now on getting my template set up, and it's a huge pain to set it all up. But I'm convinced that the end result will be less CPU usage for a loaded project. And that's not to mention the ability to load multiple projects and applications that all reference the same VEP server without having to reload anything.

VEP is not exactly heavy on CPU by itself. And there ARE benefits to doing it in the host. There is no one single best approach. But all other things equal, a VEP project and a non-VEP project will deliver better overall performance for the VEP project.

(Obviously, smaller projects, or other certain use-cases may not provide the same results). YMMV.

Brent

I can confirm that template based on disabled tracks in Cubase make a huge headache about project files size. When you are doing something like full-length movie or show with many episodes, it kills your hard drives space in one moment.

Another problem is that you need to open every other project from zero, uploading all instruments again. When you have some deadlines and need to make edits for 6-7 scenes in one day, all these open/close sessions stuff eats lots of time.

Right now I'm working on my new template based on VEP7 and I hope it will work better for me.

Hi,

FYI I have completely changed my mind.
I'm building a template without VEP.
In fact, when I tested the keyboard shortcuts to open the VSTi instrument editor as well as the one to activate or deactivate the track, I experienced a workflow that I had never seen until now.
I also changed the way I route and print things.

Well I arrive at a fairly huge forecast of 1338 VSTi Tracks (all deactivated) as well as 116 Stereo Groups tracks (and 116 stereo audio tracks). I think I will reduce this number with use.

My goal is to work in buffer 256.
We'll see if it will work (I hope).

ballagnat said:

Hi,

FYI I have completely changed my mind.
I'm building a template without VEP.
In fact, when I tested the keyboard shortcuts to open the VSTi instrument editor as well as the one to activate or deactivate the track, I experienced a workflow that I had never seen until now.
I also changed the way I route and print things.

Well I arrive at a fairly huge forecast of 1338 VSTi Tracks (all deactivated) as well as 116 Stereo Groups tracks (and 116 stereo audio tracks). I think I will reduce this number with use.

My goal is to work in buffer 256.
We'll see if it will work (I hope).

Click to expand...

1338 tracks is not a problem
Cubase can handle them easily if you have the processor, ram and banks on Nvme SSD
But we're talking about disabled tracks
To compare
here is my template again
5950x processor 128 go of ram en 3600mhz(important for the 1:1 ratio of infinity fabric)
2 Nmve 2TB SSDs for banks
2 3TB hard drives in raid 0 for sessions
4 500GB SSDs in raid 0 for backup
and other USB 3.0 disks for second backup
Windows 11 23H2
Cubase 12 Pro but I'm testing the trial version of Cubase 13 Pro
around 4000 tracks disabled
60 groups and 180 VCA
250 macros and almost 500 PLEs
to access the different joint tracks
instrument family and/or editor
all this on a 24" touchscreen with the 14bitMIDI Sherlock Plugin
Pure happiness

ballagnat said:

In fact, when I tested the keyboard shortcuts to open the VSTi instrument editor as well as the one to activate or deactivate the track, I experienced a workflow that I had never seen until now.

Click to expand...

This is the way. It's incredibly fast and efficient way of working, especially when combined with the possibility to macro those behind a single button you find in e.g. gaming keyboards.

...and when your cue is done you can delete all the unused tracks with a macro.

I own Vpro and do not use it. I have a disabled track master template with 4800 tracks, it loads in 7 seconds. It's set up in score order plus folders for guitars, perc etc. Each instrument gets a sub folder. I took a lot of time and it contains all my sounds. If I buy new sound, then I create template named after the sounds and arrange the new sounds in a similar order. It takes about an hour for an orchestra. I then import a copy of all these sounds into my master template and allocate the strings ot the strings folder, etc etc. A few minutes work.
I NEVER use my master except ot audition. I always work with a virgin template and if I want a horn or something, I can dual open my Master Template, activate the horns, decide what I like or need, close the master without saving, then on my virgin template use the import function under the File menu to import the horn. It's easy to do, (with familiarity of the process) the whole audition process is five minutes max.
I therefore have no overheads or clutter as I work

Z

Hi,

My Main template is done!

I haven't yet composed any cues strictly speaking, but in the construction phase I compiled quite a few instruments in real time, which suggests with good certainty nice things for the future.

The general behavior at this stage is excellent. The processor is barely used with a buffer of 256... the instruments load almost instantly.

To be seen in real use.

The only downside is that between my empty and full 8TB TB4 M2 SSDs, my speed tests showed a clear slowdown in reading speed (which remains 1640MB/s). When they were blank, I was at 2782MB/s and these were very good disks that cost me an arm and a leg..

In summary, I worked like a donkey to put this setup together and I don't think I've ever had such a good setup in my life as a composer.

Best,