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MIR 3D vs Berlin Studio

David Kudell said:
Tom Holkenborg Brass was recorded in the wider arrangement. Also it looks like Ark Zero as well, based on this video:
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I see you are doing the same thing i have been doing....looking at every OT video skipping around searching for what positions/seatings set up a specific library was recorded with. :emoji_thumbsup:
 
ChickenAndARoll said:
Hey Dietz,

For rooms that don't have Vienna Standard presets, do we need to handle EQing to correctly affect the depth of an instrument, or is MIR doing that automatically when we move the icon around? For example, if I'm using Recording Studio Weiler and put an instance of MIR on a dry trumpet, piano, and saxophone, do we need to tailor the EQ settings manually to make it sound accurate? I'm paranoid that I'm not doing enough work here since I literally will just drag the icon and adjust the width until it sounds good 😂

I guess a better way to ask this would be: What exactly do the Vienna Standard Presets do? Is it just giving you an idealistic location of where a particular instrument normally goes within the room?
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I don't want to drag this thread off-topic too much, as these questions might be better asked in VSL's own forum. I'll be brief, therefore:

You don't need EQ to affect depth, that's all part of the multi-positional and multi-directional IRs. You can add the additional Air Absorption Filter and /or additional EQing for the dry signal component (which MIR also takes care of) to enhance the effect.

Re: Preset Management: MIR 3D handles presets from two sides. "Venue Presets" include all Venue-specific data (most notably Microphone settings, but also RoomEQs etc ... everything that "defines the empty hall, readily set-up for recording"). - "Roles", OTOH, allow to define settings for individual signal sources (each one represented by a "MIR Icon" on a stage) within a specific Venue Preset. Once assigned properly (e.g. "Violins 1 - First Chair", or "My Leadvocal" ... you get the drift) they allow for instant switching between halls and/or different orchestral seating arrangements.

(Sidenote: If you happen to know VSL's legacy "MIRx", then you will find these vast preset collections in form of the "Vienna Standards" now. The big change is that you can not only adapt existing presets, but also create your own settings in MIR 3D.)

HTH,
 
Nashi_VI said:
So, all in all, my post was just about the side by side comparison, not the quality of the sound or the plugins themselves.
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That's what I understood anyway, don't worry. No offence was taken - I was just trying to clarify a few aspects that came up. :)
 
Living Fossil said:
I didn't write anywhere that that's how M3D works.
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I was simply replying to what you said:

Living Fossil said:
You could also ask why modern orchestral recordings are done the way they are done, with a multiple mic setup, instead of just capturing the orchestra with one stereo microphone from one position.
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what were you referring to as only using a single stereo microphone from one position?


Why do you make this wrong assumption?
Decca + AB + Surround equals three mic configurations. And each of them captured 16 seating positions.
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Nice to hear that BS has 3 recorded positions, but still that is the static product in question with 3 pre-recorded IR positions. It is orders of magnitude less flexible then MirPro3D. I don't mean to slam it, just making honest observation. The more simple usage could in fact be preferable for those people seeking that sound within those more-limited confines.

BS does not really provide true stage positioning of the players also I might add (or does it?) it is providing ER's from various positions on the stage...from exactly three pre-determined mic locations which you can mix together as desired. It’s still up to you to provide other panning and depth clues to the direct sound from each player on the stage.

Back to what we were talking about before, I find it impossible to make a categorical statement that MirPro3D, in comparison to BS, is always a certain way. MirPro3D has several orders of magnitude more complexity and every use case will be different.
 
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Markrs said:
I have Inspirata which I find works well on close mic’ed instruments reducing the need for other mic positions. This has mean I am not interested in a similar solution with more studios. The 2 most obvious solutions are MIR3D and Berlin Studio. The main difference of course is that with MIR you can buy many rooms not just Teldex, however getting Teldex would be one of the main reasons for getting MIR so it seems still a good comparison.

If MIR looks a good option I would consider getting the vouchers to reduce the cost.

Does any one have more spatial reverbs and can tell me much about the differences?
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I have the three ones and have never been successful in finding a good preset for dry instruments in Inspirata. Maybe it's just me, but I don't quite understand all the praise for it.
On the other hand, MIR Pro 3D and Berlin Studio have rendered excellent hassle-free results to me.
BS is surely easier to use, but MP is not complicated, either. If you had good results with Inspirata, both would be second nature for you.
MP is way more flexible than BS, as you can place and rotate the instrument to your liking. The many IRs also give you more options as opposed to BS, which has only Teldex in it. The flip side of MIR is the steep price, as everything in Vienna.
Despite the fact of having only one room, with Berlin Studio you can manipulate the color by changing the knobs and mic mixing. And when combined with other tools like Virtual Sound Stage, you can get as much flexibility as MIR Pro.
I don't know if you have seen my test for Berlin Studio. In the case you have not, here is it:


I plan to release a similar test for MIR Pro in January.
 
Dewdman42 said:
define "best results"


I disagree with such a categorical statement that BS has more depth or more energy. Based on what? MirPro is very configurable and flexible. That user was apparantly not able to get as as much depth and energy as BS; according to them. it is not objectively honest to categorically say that MirPro has less depth or energy then BS.
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The conversation followed previous observations.
"Best results" were already covered a few times, if you took the time to read, for example, the exchanges with Dietz and some guidance from him. There was also another user making suggestions for a better result with BS. Please, just scroll and read all over if you need that to be clear.
"Energy" was brought up as well, and was mentioned about the feeling that the sfz articulations were more clear, and stronger through BS.
"Depth"... well this is an evaluation of the listening. The evaluation was based on 1 example (Psycho). But the fact that we can disagree with hearing perceptions doesn't mean that someone is being dishonest.
Nor has anyone said that MIR by itself has less capability to offer depth or anything else. A good text interpretation will lead in the opposite direction. That some people, like me, expect or wish, that MIR could have as much depth and energy as BS has shown, demonstrated in a future example.
 
Living Fossil said:
Well, if that's the relevant thing for you, I'm sure you should get M3D!
For me, it's the sonic results that I get with Berlin Studio (and also the workflow) that make me love that plugin.
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They both do similar things, but in the end the main difference is exactly the workflow (and the scope of the 2 plugins themselves), MIR is more granular in its apporoach and you can do pretty much anything you can think of with it, but it is more complex to use and also way more expensive even if you only buy it for Teldex, while BS is built to give you the OT sound out of the box and it is more of a direct approach, you don't need to fiddle around to much with the controls to get the sound it is aimed at reproducing and it is cheaper.
So different tools for different uses and different workflows....even if, at the same time, they can both accomplish very similar things and also be used very similarly as well.
 
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Rubens Tubenchlak said:
The conversation followed previous observations.
"Best results" were already covered a few times, if you took the time to read, for example, the exchanges with Dietz and some guidance from him. There was also another user making suggestions for a better result with BS. Please, just scroll and read all over if you need that to be clear.
"Energy" was brought up as well, and was mentioned about the feeling that the sfz articulations were more clear, and stronger through BS.
"Depth"... well this is an evaluation of the listening. The evaluation was based on 1 example (Psycho). But the fact that we can disagree with hearing perceptions doesn't mean that someone is being dishonest.
Nor has anyone said that MIR by itself has less capability to offer depth or anything else. A good text interpretation will lead in the opposite direction. That some people, like me, expect or wish, that MIR could have as much depth and energy as BS has shown, demonstrated in a future example.
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And to repeat, I disagree with that kind of blanket statement as I have already explained why it is not honest to make such a claim. Mirpro has incredible flexibility so use case can vary tremendously
 
Living Fossil said:
Well, if that's the relevant thing for you, I'm sure you should get M3D!
For me, it's the sonic results that I get with Berlin Studio (and also the workflow) that make me love that plugin.
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Nothing wrong with that! Just saying….the results from mirpro can largely be a result of the creator more than the tool itself. It is not fair nor honest to make blanket statements about how it sounds like less energy or less depth. That can easily be pilot error.

It can be perfectly fair to say that you tried it and you were not personally able to get results you like.
 
To make clear what I think is @Living Fossil's point, and the key difference here, quoting @Dietz from the VSL forums:

MIR on the other hand is founded completely on Ambisonics, a highly advanced meta-format which relies on the purest form of a four-capsule coincident microphone array.
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Thus no matter how many different source and recording positions are offered by MIR, any spaced microphone configuration, like a Decca tree, is emulated from a coincident IR set. With Berlin Studio the IRs are spaced stereo in the first place. IMO, one never sounds like the other. Thus if one has a preference for spaced stereo pairs, or are used to their sound or workflow given it is a most common technique in orchestral recordings, one might prefer Berlin Studio. It is actually apples vs oranges. Neither can do what the other one does, no matter the number of possible configurations of MIR.
 
richhickey said:
Thus no matter how many different source and recording positions are offered by MIR, any spaced microphone configuration, like a Decca tree, is emulated from a coincident IR set. With Berlin Studio the IRs are spaced stereo in the first place. IMO, one never sounds like the other. Thus if one has a preference for spaced stereo pairs, or are used to their sound or workflow given it is a most common technique in orchestral recordings, one might prefer Berlin Studio. It is actually apples vs oranges. Neither can do what the other one does, no matter the number of possible configurations of MIR.
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Very appropriate summary.
Berlin Studio was meant to capture the sound of the Teldex studio in the way Orchestral Tools recorded the majority of their products, several years ago. Thus using the same microphone setups, pre-amps, etc.
The plugin does not use any mathematical "projections" or calculations to simulate non-recorded positions or non-used microphones. Like someone mentioned, MIR is a virtual stage plugin. Berlin Studio is a more "standard" convolution reverb with a matrix of presets. With a focus on realism and usability from day one.
 
Dewdman42 said:
It can be perfectly fair to say that you tried it and you were not personally able to get results you like.
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I don't intend to try M3D, neither do I intend to try & buy many other plugins.
I trust my instinct if it's about the question what product to try & buy and which I can skip based on listening to the available demos and walkthroughs.
By that I don't mean that it's necessarily the same for different persons.
 

Yet another Mir question

There's been some very informative discussion on a few Mir Pro threads the past week, and it's always nice to have Dietz offer his expertise. I have another question regarding the placement of instruments on the virtual stage: it seems that some people criticize the wide-panning of the...
vi-control.net vi-control.net

Recommend reading
 
Too many words. Not enough examples.

Here is an attempt at approximating the same setup in Berlin Studio and MIR Pro 3D with VSL Synchronized Flute 1. Hopefully the performance isn't too horrible for @Nando Florestan. ;)

Dry:
View attachment VSL SZyd Flute 1 (Dry).mp3

Berlin Studio (Woodwinds placement, 10% left pan in Synchron Player, 0 dB Signal, 0 dB Tree, -Inf AB, -12 dB Surround):
View attachment VSL SZyd Flute 1 (Berlin Studio).mp3

MIR Pro 3D (Teldex, 35% dry/wet, 0 dB main mic, -12 dB secondary mic, see screenshot for placement):
View attachment VSL SZyd Flute 1 (MIR).mp3

1672433602172.png
 
Dewdman42 said:
We

And to repeat, I disagree with that kind of blanket statement as I have already explained why it is not honest to make such a claim. Mirpro has incredible flexibility so use case can vary tremendously
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there is no "blanket statement" but evaluations about the provided material (Psycho). No "claim", as well as I, am precisely trying to figure out ways that MIR could have a result that bring the characteristics of the sound previously shared.
To make it a bit clear to you, I am a MIR user. I am trying to understand, not through what is being written, but from the people who are generously and professionally offering examples that I can listen to.
 
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