HELP! Making tempo changes later on in film score session without loosing sync, region automation etc'

I think I would split the project (duplicate) after the tempo change and then recombine the stems/mix when you are done.

sinkd said:

I think I would split the project (duplicate) after the tempo change and then recombine the stems/mix when you are done.

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Thanks for the reply.. I thought of that.. I mean, its only one small cue i want to change the tempo for.. and its in around 20 min out of 35. So I could just work on that cue separately. But, there must be a way to do these changes on the timeline no? I mean this can happen a lot.. How do people manage this? I found this YouTube video talking about keeping the sync with the lock SMPTE, but its funny.. he changes the tempo, the regions all move and stay in place, but after the change the regions start to "flow over" to new tempo's.. which will obviously just cause more damage.
I just want to understand what the best workflow is for the next projects etc.

this is the video:

I use DP and would use Chunks to keep the cue timings and tempos from affecting subsequent sections. I think Logic composers generally use separate project files to accomplish the same, but I am not sure.

Another possibility would be a "tempo readjustment area" after the accelerated section that realigns to the next marker?

Maybe @Dewdman42 will chime in.

I had a similar problem recently. I was working with Cubase/Nuendo. In the end, instead of changing the tempo using the Tempo Track, I used "Sizing applies Time Stretch" and stretched the affected tracks. Still, I am always nervous that I insert a silence somewhere or just touch a point in the Tempo Track and have everything goes out of sync. It would be nice to have the possibility to have a "break" point, to be positioned before every cue. Is this already possible?

wadamski9 said:

Hey everyone,

Something i can't figure out and couldn't find the right info.
i'm using logic pro (rosetta on mac studio).

I'm getting close to finish a score for a 35 min documentary. In the middle of the score i want to make a tempo change, increase from 100 to 120 bpm. But for the life of me, i'm not able to understand how to keep all the rest of score in sync and stay the same. i used lock SMPTE.. Ok so that seems to keep the regions aligned with the picture 9But also I'm not sure it stayed 100% accurate), But also the midi automation for each region did not move with the regions, why is that? And the worst is, ok i make a tempo change, the regions move with the picture but there are still different tempos up ahead that don't move.. and then the regions pushed forward get mixed up with tempos that are not for them.. and that feels like it just causes a train wreck.. its pretty crazy i couldn't find a simple way to overcome this. I mean Im sure all film/tv composers face this situation.. that much later in the session, when all the music is laid out you want to make a tempo change somwhere in the score but not to effect anything els.
Please help!!!

Thank you!

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This can be done.

I know the instructions below look like a lot, but it's just to try to walk you through the steps. Once you get the hang of it, this is an easy task.

What you essentially need to do is

1. Change the tempo of the section you want to be faster;
2. Move all the following musical sections to the right so they synchronize to picture again;
3. Write some music (if necessary) in the new gap you've created.

Before we start, go to the bar-beat tracker, the black oval at the top of the screen, and click the arrow on the right. Select "Beats & Time (Large)" this will show you Bars&Beats, and SMPTE, together at the same time.




First you need to smpte UNLOCK everything. You had the right instinct, but SMPTE lock is used for different tasks than what you're trying to accomplish.

To SMPTE Unlock: Go to your session view with all of your MIDI regions in it, and open the folder at the top that contains the Markers, Arrangement, Tempo & Signature (this will make sure you unlock them too). Press Command-A to Select All everything in your session. Then press Command+PageUp to unlock everything from SMPTE.

Step two, you're gonna find the first important musical sync point AFTER the musical section that you wanted to change from 100 to 120. It could be the next important tempo change for instance. WRITE DOWN the SMPTE where that new section begins so you have that information for later.

In this little example, the section we're gonna change from 100bpm to 120bpm is bars 17-32, and I made a note that we start a new section at 112bpm starting at bar 33, at SMPTE 01.01.16.20.



Step 3 is very simple! You can now CHANGE THE TEMPO from 100 to 120.

Only the tempo will change. Everything in your session will stay at the same bar & beat position, because you're SMPTE-unlocked. This is good!

Now let's go back to the same sync point we saved for later. It will be at the same point in the music of course, but the SMPTE will now be wrong - it'll be earlier than you wanted, because you made the music before it faster. This is the basic problem introduced by the tempo change, and what we're going to fix. You need to add more "musical" space in your session - more bars and beats - in order to make the later MIDI sync up with the picture again.



Step 4, you'll need to take every MIDI & Audio region that crosses over this sync point you wrote down, and slice it into "before" and "After" regions (you can use the scissor tool). This is so they can be moved & manipulated separately.




Step 5. Let's look forward in the session and figure out HOW MANY BARS AND BEATS of the new tempo it takes before we get to that saved smpte. this is where we'll want to restart the music.

In my example, I found that 3 bars later is nearly at the right sync! 01.01.16.20 and 57 subframes.In this case we got lucky with a difference of exactly 3 measures, but whatever bar & beat is the closest to your saved sync, just drop a marker there EVEN IF it's on a beat in the middle of a bar.




Step 7 is the second to last thing, and the trickiest step. You need to select all of these:

- absolutely every MIDI region in your session AFTER the saved-sync point (where you sliced all the midi regions).

- Next, hold shift and ALSO select every marker and every time signature change AFTER the saved sync point.

- Finally, what I find trickiest, continue holding shift and click & drag along the tempo track from JUST TO THE RIGHT of any future tempo change, and continue dragging to the right to select all the way until the end of the movie.

When everything is properly selected it will look like this. Notice how only future tempo changes are selected. This can take a couple tries to get right.




Now we're gonna drag the midi region, and the ENTIRE RIGHT HALF OF YOUR SESSION, over so that the left edge of the midi region moves from the "Saved" sync point over to the our new "Right Sync" marker.


continued in next post

Here's what that looks like after we made the change correctly. Notice that all markers, all time signatures, and all tempo changes to the right of the region we're editing, all moved correctly.



You should have got a popup asking if you want to move the track automation data as well. This is good, click yes!

If you didn't get such a popup or your automation didn't move correctly, you need to click the checkbox "Ask" in this menu:



OK so now all of your:

time signatures,
midi regions,
midi automation,
markers,
and tempo changes

have been moved to start at a new point. You just have two small steps left.

First, we can make the sync tighter if necessary. We do this by dropping a tempo dot at the new "Right Sync." Now we can change the tempo of the newly cleared-out region (the 3 bars at 112bpm) so that it ends at exactly the smpte we want. By a process of trial and error, I found that changing the tempo from 112 to 112.5 will make our sync exactly 01.01.16.20



If the blank region isn't several whole measures, but ends in the middle of a measure, now is also a good time to add the correct time signatures (such as an inserted 2/4 or 3/4 bar) so that the music to the right once again lines up with your downbeats.

The last step is creative. Gotta figure out what you want to do with these 3 new blank measures. That depends on your music and the picture. They could be blank silence if you just ended a cue, or perhaps you need to compose a new segue between your two sections of existing music.

Hope that helps and let me know any questions!

I think SMPTE-locking almost always makes things worse - at least, unless you're dealing with really simple situations where all regions start in the same place, and the tempos don't change.

If you've got sections A and B, and you want to make a tempo change to section A without affecting B's timing, then the best "general purpose" procedure I've found is this. It looks a bit long on paper, but only takes a minute:

• Work out the safety margin you need (or "blast radius" as I usually call it) for your tempo changes: i.e. how many bars section A will grow or shrink by. Round up, and add a couple of bars for safety.
  • E.g. if section A is 100 bars long at 120bpm, and you increase the tempo to 180bpm (while keeping it the same length in time), then it'll end up 150 bars long - that's a change of 50 bars. If you reduce its tempo to 90bpm, then it'll end up 75 bars long; a change of 25 bars.
• Make sure section B starts with a tempo change. If one doesn't exist, add a dummy "change" that fixes the same tempo as it currently gets from A. This will protect it from changes later.
• Now select everything in section B - including global events - and move them to the right by your safety margin.
  • Remember to open global tracks and ensure Markers, Signatures, Tempo etc are visible so that they'll be selected and moved along with B's regions.
  • If you use any track-based automation, ensure "Mix", "Move Track Automation With Regions" is enabled
  • I usually do the selection by putting the playhead at the start of section B, and pressing Shift+F to select everything from the playhead onwards.
• There should now be an empty buffer of <safety margin> bars between the end of section A and B. If you like, temporarily add some big tempo change in that gap and then play section B from its new location to make sure it still sounds right; undo the change before continuing.
• Create a marker where Section B used to be, and SMPTE-lock the marker. That will be your placeholder for section B's content after the work is done.
• Now make your tempo changes to section A. Do not SMPTE-lock section B's content!
  • You may still want to SMTPE-lock Section A, depending on why you're doing the tempo change.
  • If you're making any time signature changes in A, be sure to add a signature change to restore the signature section B expects. (Unlike with tempo, you can't do this in advance as Logic tends to merge matching adjacent signatures.)
• Now prepare to return section B's content to its original time position:
  • The SMPTE-locked placeholder is probably no longer on a bar (assuming section B was on a bar before, at least.) Now is a good time to make whatever small tempo adjustments - or possibly a time signature change to insert a bar with fewer beats - to get the placeholder back on the grid.
  • Select section B's content as before - including the dummy tempo change you added at the start - and drag it all back to the placeholder marker.
• And you're done.

Looks like @NoamL beat me to it whilst I was typing. Both processes look reassuringly similar! At first glance, it looks like we only differ because I prefer to "clear the area", make the change, and put stuff back, whereas @NoamL is making the change and then fixing up.

aldous said:

• I usually do the selection by putting the playhead at the start of section B, and pressing Shift+F to select everything from the playhead onwards.

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Today I learned! Thank you very much.

Our methods are quite similar

Not that it's going to help you in this case, but this situation is one of the main reasons why one sequence per cue is the way to go.

You can fiddle with individual cues till the cows come home without changes impacting the rest of the score.

Thank you soo much everyone!
Its crazy that there's not a more simple way to do this.
I mean, this series I'm composing for is 3 episode, each of 35 min. The dealine is a bit insane, 1 week for each episode and each episode has A LOT of music.... So having a project for each sequence seems a lot.. having about 20 projects for the 20 cues of each episode... thats 60 saved projects... also a lot of storage space. They are also still in the edit, so everything is changing and moving around.
But, some of the things helped me here... its a hard workflow.

wadamski9 said:

Its crazy that there's not a more simple way to do this.

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Yeah - really, all the problems stem from that single timeline of bars/beats. Without a way to break/restart the timeline, changes at any point can have knock-on effects to everything after.

Well, there is one way of breaking the timeline: you can use "tempo sets" (also "signature sets" and "marker sets") to hold independent timelines of tempo/signatures/markers respectively. So, in theory, you could have one set of instrument tracks and create tempo/signature/marker sets for each cue, along with a "folder" for each cue's MIDI. Each time you wanted to switch cue, you'd have to enable the cue's folder and those three event sets... sounds like a bit of a pain, but pretty sure it'd work.

Otherwise, tempo sets are still a really good way to try a tempo change without worrying if you have enough undo steps to get back to the original set-up: just duplicate your current tempo set, try out your changes, and switch back to your original tempo set if it goes wrong.