One real violin/viola doubling string samples
- Thread starter JeffvR
- Start date
JohnG
Senior Member
Hi Jeff,
I've done this plenty of times. It's amazing how even one player can dress up a track. I spoke not too long ago with a guy who does loads of scores that appear on Netflix and even in the theaters, who uses a quartet or quintet to dress things up. From the sound, you'd think it was a larger number.
Be sure to think about the mic position. If you want a 'large concert hall' vibe, it is not going to blend well if you place the microphone one or two meters from the player. It is so hard to marry those two elements. Even if you are using the close mics on your samples, don't put the mic right on top of the player.
To accomplish that, if you don't own a spacious mansion (like everyone else on v.i. control), it can be worthwhile to hire a recording studio (and an engineer). If you pick an off hour, or a weekend, and tell them it's for a student film or something (if it is), they might cut you some slack on the cost. And an engineer is usually included in the price, at least in most places.
Regarding the mic position -- If it's a pop song that's another affair, as those strings are many times pretty close to the players, as are the mics on the other instruments and the vocals. I still favour a bit of distance but that's partly a matter of taste.
More, more, more!
One last thought -- it isn't necessarily much more expensive to hire two or even three players. As long as you have players who are accustomed to playing with clicks (Los Angeles, London, Nashville -- quite a few places are thick on the ground with that), the result can be better. Not exactly sure why, because, in theory at least, one player ought to be able to multitrack and it should sound fine. But I do prefer the results I've gotten from that. It also theoretically reduces the background noise, though I wouldn't get too worried about that.
Depending on the material, a string quintet (or sextet or something -- nine?) makes even more of a difference. But that's a big change, so only if you have the money and/ or it's a labour of love.
Enjoy yourself -- nothing like the real thing!!
Kind regards,
John
I've done this plenty of times. It's amazing how even one player can dress up a track. I spoke not too long ago with a guy who does loads of scores that appear on Netflix and even in the theaters, who uses a quartet or quintet to dress things up. From the sound, you'd think it was a larger number.
Be sure to think about the mic position. If you want a 'large concert hall' vibe, it is not going to blend well if you place the microphone one or two meters from the player. It is so hard to marry those two elements. Even if you are using the close mics on your samples, don't put the mic right on top of the player.
To accomplish that, if you don't own a spacious mansion (like everyone else on v.i. control), it can be worthwhile to hire a recording studio (and an engineer). If you pick an off hour, or a weekend, and tell them it's for a student film or something (if it is), they might cut you some slack on the cost. And an engineer is usually included in the price, at least in most places.
Regarding the mic position -- If it's a pop song that's another affair, as those strings are many times pretty close to the players, as are the mics on the other instruments and the vocals. I still favour a bit of distance but that's partly a matter of taste.
More, more, more!
One last thought -- it isn't necessarily much more expensive to hire two or even three players. As long as you have players who are accustomed to playing with clicks (Los Angeles, London, Nashville -- quite a few places are thick on the ground with that), the result can be better. Not exactly sure why, because, in theory at least, one player ought to be able to multitrack and it should sound fine. But I do prefer the results I've gotten from that. It also theoretically reduces the background noise, though I wouldn't get too worried about that.
Depending on the material, a string quintet (or sextet or something -- nine?) makes even more of a difference. But that's a big change, so only if you have the money and/ or it's a labour of love.
Enjoy yourself -- nothing like the real thing!!
Kind regards,
John
Thanks John for your insights! I was thinking about recording 3 violins at once too. You get more of a group sound right away.
With a quartet or quintet do you mean 2 violins, viola and cello, (bass), or 4/5 violins?
thesteelydane
Bunker Samples
I used to do this for a living (recording the real strings, that is). Overdubbing multiple times is waaaayyyy harder than you think, but eventually I got good at it. On the technical side the issue is to get as different takes as you can with mic placement, or you will have massive phasing issues. Way easier (and quicker, but more expensive) to record a group of 3 players a few times.
thesteelydane
Bunker Samples
As mentioned above, this is WAAYYY harder than most people think.
JohnG
Senior Member
First off, @thesteelydane is absolutely right about trying to get the sound you’re hoping for with just one violinist. If you really want, say, six passes, it’ll be vastly more successful to have three players and get them to overdub once, rather than try to stack six takes.
But it’s also true that just one — a solo — if recorded right will dress out a string line to a startling degree. Just think about the samples and the positioning of the mic. Remember that even if you have front row seats at a symphony, you’re still many meters / yards from the string players as a group.
Quartet
With regard to a quartet or quintet, remember that two violins trying to play in unison can introduce intonation (tuning) problems, whereas just one (or three) on a part works fine. Accordingly, if you hired two violins, one viola, and one cello, you would most likely do just one pass (I would anyway), with each player on a different part. The quintet idea is to add either a third violin (so 3, 1, 1) or even a bass. If you have a bass, though, you will want to put up a baffle or otherwise isolate the instrument — it’s big and can overwhelm a violin with no trouble!
By contrast with violins, I have found that two violas can play in tune, though often that’s been when there’s divisi and there are actually four or six (or more violas). I don’t think I’ve ever hired only two violas on their own with nobody else playing. Plus, I’ve been lucky to have very good players who are accustomed to recording and to clicks. I also write lots of divisi so if I have two violas I’m quite likely to have them on separate lines anyway.
Left Field
Another way to tackle the sweetening thing is to try George Strezov’s team in Sofia (George of Strezov Sampling). They have excellent string players, a good studio, and might even be able to tack on a small session to the end of one of their other dates. They also can orchestrate and copy parts.
I’ve worked with them many times and they are very professional, have good microphones, good engineers, and a team that can communicate accurately and quickly in English. fourformusic.com
Yes I wish Eastern European orchestras would be an option! Unfortunately most of the films I’m doing require the music budget to be spend in The Netherlands, which basically doubles/triples the expenses. I had great experiences recording a full orchestra and string quartet at Budapest Scoring. A 4 hour string quartet recording costed me around $1100, which is very affordable.
Thanks for the insights! I know 2 violins can sound out of tune so it would either be 1 or 3. What about 3 violins and 1 viola playing one line to thicken up the sound a bit? 3 violins, 1 viola and 1 cello also might be an option.
HardyP
Senior Member
I think it depends on how pronounced that part is… I‘ve done that approach 20years ago, recording a Quartet, and doubling it afterwards with some AKAI Sample Disc (Peter Siedlaczeks Special Edition or something like that…?!?). That was as an accompaniment for a children’s choir recording, so the requirement to professionalism might not have been as high as yours.
JohnG
Senior Member
At the risk of stating the obvious, doubling with a viola will thicken the sound, but it will alter the timbre a bit as well, as you are no doubt aware. Naturally will depend on the range of the line as well.
thesteelydane
Bunker Samples
If you do get a group of 3 players in a reasonable sized space, one very effective way to do multiple passes is to leave the mics in place, and move the players chairs for each take. It's a technique I refined when I was doing remote sessions for a living, and eventually it became the bases of Bunker Strings. You can do as many mics as you want in any configuration, but I would always have a simple XY coincident stereo parr as as the main mic. It's the simplest if stereo mic techniques, but nothing gives you better positional accuracy, and that can greatly help create the illusion of a section. Coincidentally, this is also exactly the way Bunker Strings was recorded.
Beat Kaufmann
Senior Member
Bee_Abney
How long have I been out?
And just a note on Sound Particles Density. It is a great plugin, and sounds really very good; but it won't sound like genuine acoustic instruments or voices, it will sound at least somewhat synthetic. It can work wonders in lots of contexts, but I can't see it helping you with this.
