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The Perfect DAW in MacOS

Olympum

Active Member
There isn’t one. Simple. Moving on ... however ...

I have been on this quest to find the perfect DAW for me, and learnt a few things along the way. I work with orchestral samples, and I like to have two or three choices available to me for every orchestral section. And even though I work with articulation switching, I end up with hundreds of virtual instruments and tracks. My main criteria is to be able to efficiently manage my ability to change sounds for instruments, for example to replace a horn, to bring in a bass flute, etc. I work with a base template (Berlin and other Teldex libraries), and I layer on top from Synchron and others.

I have looked into Logic Pro, Cubase, Studio One and Digital Perfomer, both with VEP and without. I am concerned with CPU in idle mode, while playing and at RAM usage. And here my main learnings:

* Logic Pro with its dynamic plugin loading makes it excellent for medium sized templates (400-1000 tracks). Custom instrument patches makes it possible to have empty tracks, pre-routed, and simply swap instruments. I find navigation and visibility are a bit behind, but otherwise Logic is the best at this: idle CPU is almost zero by switching the audio off for not engaged tracks, and playback CPU is optimal for avoiding dropouts, particularly in Apple silicon where it avoids the efficiency cores and only loads performance cores (something important for plugins such as the Synchron Player). Finally, Logic Pro and VEP are a bit of a challenge, and even though one can get a multi-timbral setup working, Logic steers you into the one track per instrument, and in fact one VEP project per instrument. This yields the best resource (CPU and RAM) utilisation possible given Logic’s audio system.
* Cubase 12 and 13 has the best support for running large template, and navigation and visibility are excellent. The issue is that idle CPU with VST3s VIs becomes high as soon as you have 150 instruments on, which is not unusual for me in an orchestral track. This might be different in Windows, but at least in MacOS, switching 150 tracks with VSTi plugins, brings my CPU to 50% just on idle. Cubase support for VEP is excellent and makes Cubase a completely different program at high track count. Unlike Logic, Cubase only puts VST effects to nap, not instruments, which continue consuming CPU on idle and play whether there is audio or not present, which makes using VEP a requirement as soon as you cross the 100 active tracks (M1 Max).
* Studio One is not yet there in order to manage large templates, and only works well in the 100-500 tracks. The tracks preset is very neat, and almost as good as Logic Pro, except in Logic you can decide whether to merge the routing or not when you bring a custom patch, whereas in Studio One it brings everything along, whether you like it or not. I also find that adding track presets to a large template is painfully slow and therefore not very practical, hence you need a template with 100s of tracks which makes visibility operations sluggish. Navigation is better than Logic but not as good as Cubase. Finally, VST3 performance is identical to Cubase on idle, and a bit worse on play, whereas with AU it is able to shutdown the plugins and idle performance is very good, whereas stability is not (I assume because most AUs are not tested with Studio One). Studio One has most of the MIDI capabilities of Cubase, but the use of AU makes it more CPU friendly. The project saving plugin cache is also very neat and makes saves instantaneous.
* Digital Performer is a strange beast. Pre-gen works surprisingly well, and with AU or MAS plugins idle CPU is very low. Visibility, navigation are however super hard, and I can’t find my way around it. And once you had chunks and VEP, you lose pre-gen in AUX channels, so performance quickly goes down the drain. Articulation management is ahead of the pack of delay per art. But altogether, the package is not well thought.

To sum it up, in 2024 all these DAWs are phenomenal (this is not meant to be a DAW war post), but each excels in different applications:

1. For a local only template, Logic Pro is the clear winner.
2. For a VEP based template, Cubase is the clear winner.
3. If you want Cubase-like MIDI editing in a mid-sized locally disabled template, Studio One is the winner.
4. For a large locally disabled template, I did not find a good option.

Personally, I had been using Cubase/VEP, but I became tired of managing VEP. After a brief period of trying to get Logic Pro to work for me, I finally have given up for Studio One, as I miss the Cubase-like MIDI editing capabilities. This is totally personal preference. I only wish Cubase would support AU ...

I hope this helps others in their own quest. But perhaps others have different conclusions?
 
Did you try Cakewalk?





just kidding. We all know Cakewalk is PC only.

I find myself switching DAWs a lot also, depending on what I am trying to do. But that may stop when I learn the nuances of DAWs other than ProTools. Adds to the things to do once I've retired list.....
 
There isn’t one. Simple. Moving on ... however ...

I have been on this quest to find the perfect DAW for me, and learnt a few things along the way. I work with orchestral samples, and I like to have two or three choices available to me for every orchestral section. And even though I work with articulation switching, I end up with hundreds of virtual instruments and tracks. My main criteria is to be able to efficiently manage my ability to change sounds for instruments, for example to replace a horn, to bring in a bass flute, etc. I work with a base template (Berlin and other Teldex libraries), and I layer on top from Synchron and others.

I have looked into Logic Pro, Cubase, Studio One and Digital Perfomer, both with VEP and without. I am concerned with CPU in idle mode, while playing and at RAM usage. And here my main learnings:

* Logic Pro with its dynamic plugin loading makes it excellent for medium sized templates (400-1000 tracks). Custom instrument patches makes it possible to have empty tracks, pre-routed, and simply swap instruments. I find navigation and visibility are a bit behind, but otherwise Logic is the best at this: idle CPU is almost zero by switching the audio off for not engaged tracks, and playback CPU is optimal for avoiding dropouts, particularly in Apple silicon where it avoids the efficiency cores and only loads performance cores (something important for plugins such as the Synchron Player). Finally, Logic Pro and VEP are a bit of a challenge, and even though one can get a multi-timbral setup working, Logic steers you into the one track per instrument, and in fact one VEP project per instrument. This yields the best resource (CPU and RAM) utilisation possible given Logic’s audio system.
* Cubase 12 and 13 has the best support for running large template, and navigation and visibility are excellent. The issue is that idle CPU with VST3s VIs becomes high as soon as you have 150 instruments on, which is not unusual for me in an orchestral track. This might be different in Windows, but at least in MacOS, switching 150 tracks with VSTi plugins, brings my CPU to 50% just on idle. Cubase support for VEP is excellent and makes Cubase a completely different program at high track count. Unlike Logic, Cubase only puts VST effects to nap, not instruments, which continue consuming CPU on idle and play whether there is audio or not present, which makes using VEP a requirement as soon as you cross the 100 active tracks (M1 Max).
* Studio One is not yet there in order to manage large templates, and only works well in the 100-500 tracks. The tracks preset is very neat, and almost as good as Logic Pro, except in Logic you can decide whether to merge the routing or not when you bring a custom patch, whereas in Studio One it brings everything along, whether you like it or not. I also find that adding track presets to a large template is painfully slow and therefore not very practical, hence you need a template with 100s of tracks which makes visibility operations sluggish. Navigation is better than Logic but not as good as Cubase. Finally, VST3 performance is identical to Cubase on idle, and a bit worse on play, whereas with AU it is able to shutdown the plugins and idle performance is very good, whereas stability is not (I assume because most AUs are not tested with Studio One). Studio One has most of the MIDI capabilities of Cubase, but the use of AU makes it more CPU friendly. The project saving plugin cache is also very neat and makes saves instantaneous.
* Digital Performer is a strange beast. Pre-gen works surprisingly well, and with AU or MAS plugins idle CPU is very low. Visibility, navigation are however super hard, and I can’t find my way around it. And once you had chunks and VEP, you lose pre-gen in AUX channels, so performance quickly goes down the drain. Articulation management is ahead of the pack of delay per art. But altogether, the package is not well thought.

To sum it up, in 2024 all these DAWs are phenomenal (this is not meant to be a DAW war post), but each excels in different applications:

1. For a local only template, Logic Pro is the clear winner.
2. For a VEP based template, Cubase is the clear winner.
3. If you want Cubase-like MIDI editing in a mid-sized locally disabled template, Studio One is the winner.
4. For a large locally disabled template, I did not find a good option.

Personally, I had been using Cubase/VEP, but I became tired of managing VEP. After a brief period of trying to get Logic Pro to work for me, I finally have given up for Studio One, as I miss the Cubase-like MIDI editing capabilities. This is totally personal preference. I only wish Cubase would support AU ...

I hope this helps others in their own quest. But perhaps others have different conclusions?
Yes. I tested Cubase, Studio One, Reaper, and Logic Pro on my Mac 2 ultra and posted results on Youtube and came up with similar conclusions. Logic Pro beats the other DAWS tremendously on huge local-only template (my testing involved Kontakt instruments only). You can see some of the results here:

 
Yes. I tested Cubase, Studio One, Reaper, and Logic Pro on my Mac 2 ultra and posted results on Youtube and came up with similar conclusions. Logic Pro beats the other DAWS tremendously on huge local-only template (my testing involved Kontakt instruments only). You can see some of the results here:


I’m worried about watching this video. You appear to be in a lot of pain in the image above and I’m feeling a bit squeamish.



😂
 
I’m worried about watching this video. You appear to be in a lot of pain in the image above and I’m feeling a bit squeamish.



😂
:emoji_smile:hahahaha! I read a scientific article that clearly stipulated "surprised" face works in enticing views, particularly sensitive composers. :rofl:
 
Visibility, navigation are however super hard, and I can’t find my way around it. And once you had chunks and VEP, you lose pre-gen in AUX channels, so performance quickly goes down the drain.
DP is super easy for me to navigate, and no need for VEP, so I run fast and lean.

Logic's interface doesn't seem particularly logical to this experienced audio engineer, so there's that. I guess perspective is a thing.
 
Personally, I had been using Cubase/VEP, but I became tired of managing VEP. After a brief period of trying to get Logic Pro to work for me, I finally have given up for Studio One, as I miss the Cubase-like MIDI editing capabilities. This is totally personal preference. I only wish Cubase would support AU ...

I hope this helps others in their own quest. But perhaps others have different conclusions?
I mean absolutely no disrespect here, but all of your conclusions directly can be related to this simple fact, you used Cubase first. Since I used Logic and DP first my experience with Cubase was the opposite, great program, hard to navigate. Simply because I don't know it that well.

As a DP user that's used a half dozen other DAWs as well, I understand how it can seem different, the fact that the Track overview window is as and in many case more important than the Sequence Editor, or that most DAWs have a single arrange window that covers both. I really do miss the track selector in DP whenever I'm in other DAWs. PreGen in DP works so well that yeah the traditional bussing and Aux track approach all of a sudden costs CPU instead of saving it at times, but it's not tied to V-Racks, and Instruments and FX in V-Racks do Pregen if you don't have the record button armed. Record armed tracks and FX on Aux tracks, and the VEP plugin all do not prerender Pregen etc. This is true of most DAWs with a secondary buffer for larger tracks like Logic, Cubase etc. all you have to do to see this in effect is take a dozen or two heavy CPU virtual instrument tracks and record arm them in any DAW and watch your performance meter go red.
 
Yes. I tested Cubase, Studio One, Reaper, and Logic Pro on my Mac 2 ultra and posted results on Youtube and came up with similar conclusions. Logic Pro beats the other DAWS tremendously on huge local-only template (my testing involved Kontakt instruments only). You can see some of the results here:


Thank you putting all of this together. The Logic video is very impressive.

How is the save-time for each DAW with that many tracks? I like my save-times to be like my men: swift and unnoticeable.
 
+1

Perspective again rears its head.
As objective of an anecdotal observation as is possible, I jumped from DP to Logic, to DP again, and it definitely took some getting used to DP after being on Logic for 8 years. Now when I try Logic it seems really confusing and hard to navigate, of course some parts make sense but in general that's the issue with switching, the wading through mud period.
 
Yes. I tested Cubase, Studio One, Reaper, and Logic Pro on my Mac 2 ultra and posted results on Youtube and came up with similar conclusions. Logic Pro beats the other DAWS tremendously on huge local-only template (my testing involved Kontakt instruments only). You can see some of the results here:


One thing about this sort of test, it shows one scenario. I copied the Logic Pro Diva test off of the web page, because it's a test anyone can download and easily modify for any DAW, well unless you're silly enough not to own Diva!
With this test Logic performs much worse than Reaper or Digital Performer; 110 tracks in Logic compared to 140 in Reaper and Digital Performer. Probably due to the fact that it doesn't use efficiency cores much at all whereas both DP and Reaper do.
 
I mean absolutely no disrespect here, but all of your conclusions directly can be related to this simple fact, you used Cubase first. Since I used Logic and DP first my experience with Cubase was the opposite, great program, hard to navigate. Simply because I don't know it that well.

As a DP user that's used a half dozen other DAWs as well, I understand how it can seem different, the fact that the Track overview window is as and in many case more important than the Sequence Editor, or that most DAWs have a single arrange window that covers both. I really do miss the track selector in DP whenever I'm in other DAWs. PreGen in DP works so well that yeah the traditional bussing and Aux track approach all of a sudden costs CPU instead of saving it at times, but it's not tied to V-Racks, and Instruments and FX in V-Racks do Pregen if you don't have the record button armed. Record armed tracks and FX on Aux tracks, and the VEP plugin all do not prerender Pregen etc. This is true of most DAWs with a secondary buffer for larger tracks like Logic, Cubase etc. all you have to do to see this in effect is take a dozen or two heavy CPU virtual instrument tracks and record arm them in any DAW and watch your performance meter go red.
No offence taken at all, that's a completely valid point you are making. I started with Studio One and moved over to Cubase, where both share the same design philosophies at least in regard to MIDI editing.

Maybe I was not clear enough, the objective of my OP was less about workflows (where I agree that the best DAW is the one you know best), but on understanding the performance optimisations that each of these programs do in MacOS. To me these learnings were a surprise: VST3 performance on MacOS is not as good as AU because of the plugin architecture, hence VEP is necessary for programs like Cubase since VST3 is the only thing you can use; the introduction of audio groups and efficiency cores in Apple Silicon introduces issues with the DAWs, where right now only Logic is able to do this well.

Great points on DP, perhaps I need to spend a bit more time with it to train my brain to navigate and use the MIDI tools effectively. So far I have found that I have to click too many times, whereas I am used to keyboard shortcuts. I really like the video support, the score editor (I also like Logic's very much) and the articulation management, and yeah, Pregen.
 
So far I have found that I have to click too many times, whereas I am used to keyboard shortcuts.
Bingo. A lot of stuff can only be accessed by the mouse and what makes it even worse is that DP's popup windows are coded in ways that make them inaccessible to automation software without faking mouse movements. Also the state of some windows changes in ways that it becomes impossible to automate them reliably.

DP needs an API that gives access to commands under the hood and allows for a degree of scripting by the users. (e.g. REAPER/ Cubase PLE)

Also it needs ways of triggering commands without using MIDI or keyboard bindings (both severely limited and extremely annoying). DP has an OSC API but it's very limited so far. However, the problem with DP's OSC is that it's TCP OSC v1.0 which is not widely supported so they need something simpler like a Websocket server (e.g. Dorico).

DAW workflows have some of the most mind-numbing, repetitive & hellish tasks that are desperately in need of automation yet we are treated like monkeys that only know how to move a cursor and click.
 
I think these discussions would benefit from an analyze that could investigate how much time we are using in the different processes, working with the DAW. There is a set-up phase that for sure takes much time but when the template is finished, how does it play? I mean scrolling back and forth, zooming in and out, changing views (mixer, editor, arrangement) is where I spend a lot of time. AND if there is a kind of automation/macro function involved, is it simple or hard to program? Also the look, is it easy to tuck away all the things you don't use (chord tracks, arrangement tracks). Is the features of the DAW well thought out and finalized. By that I mean are they working well in daily use? I use 4 DAWs Studio One, Logic, occasionally DP and Cubase (the latter is my main daw), and I find them very different in daily work. I get SO tired of the bugs in Cubase, you know the ones, that never get fixed, the lack of integration with Dorico, the old, I mean really oldschool VST expression system (I use VSL and their maps are huge - and no Babylonwaves haven't solved that.) But I LOVE the midi editor. But sometimes I get totally MAD when I need to colorize a track and it's working so bad. And why can't I create a AIFF file AND a mp3 in one go? It so easy in Logic.
But sometime I get SO annoyed about a badly implemented feature (Arrangement in Cubase), that I only use the moment where I'm finishing a track (back tracks for musicals), and this process is maybe only 2% of the entire process, but never the less I get really agitated about it.
By the way Happy New Year! :2thumbs:
 
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using vsl synchron player i find expression maps attribute mode in cubase to be the best solution out of all daws, since you can boil down down hundreds of articulations to a couple of dozen ones taking advantage of the 4 groups.
Wish other daws implemented that.
but they really need to improve the editor.
Also I still need to rely on keyboard maestro to use them effectively.
 
I think these discussions would benefit from an analyze that could investigate how much time we are using in the different processes, working with the DAW. There is a set-up phase that for sure takes much time but when the template is finished, how does it play? I mean scrolling back and forth, zooming in and out, changing views (mixer, editor, arrangement) is where I spend a lot of time.
That was part of my criteria: I spend most of my time in MIDI editing. I always start with a sketch, either on the piano or on Dorico, and then move to the DAW. Moving CC curves, compressing, expanding them, changing arts, nudging notes, ... The second is navigation and visibility. Everything else impacts much less my productivity. For these things, I have found that only Cubase offered a workflow I could live with. Logic and its AU XPC is better for performance (and less crashes) but I am not as productive. Sure, it's probably personal and depends on when and how I learnt this. I started with a DAW called Prism in 1991, and Cubase / S1 fits my brain better for the things that are repetitive. (I only got back to using computers for music at the start of COVID).
 
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