What's new

Would you ever go back to DAW stock only?

holonology

Active Member
Minimalism is an interesting thing isn’t it? It’s definitely a popular concept, especially in genes like techno and house.

I’ve been toying with seeing what I could do with just a DAW and all the included stock sounds since I’ve neglected them.

There are many advantages to stock, notably backwards compatibility, low cpu etc.

I wondered if anyone else has done an DAW only experiment like this and how you got on?

I also hear stories of folks just deleting plugins which I get, but would you not eventually sell them on, or maybe just keep them for a rainy day?
 
Although I have a plethora of amazing orchestral libraries, lately, I have been doing all my sketching using Logic Pro's stock orchestral sounds - although the sound is a far cry from third party orchestral libraries, it is so much easier to just load them up and play rather than endlessly searching for the "right" library to use -- ultimately, I will supplant the Logic Pro orchestral sounds with third party sounds but, for sketching, I now use the stock sounds
 
20 years ago, I created an entire album using Reason 1.0 and its stock plugins (VST wasn't supported). A couple of songs actually charted and became part of some well-known DJ sets. Of course, this was electronic music without the expectation of orchestral realism. Creating music this way was rewarding in the same way that you feel a sense of engagement and fulfillment when working with Unix, that is to say you have a set of very specific tools - each of which does one thing well - and you combine them to create assets that are both useful and beautiful.
 
No, I would not.

I do delete plugins on a regular basis if I’ve not been using them (depends on the role they fill, eg synth vs a mono to stereo tool I may need one day).
 
This depends on the genre and if it's a sketch for a song that I finally will play with a live band or if it's going to be the final production. For example, electronic music can be perfectly done in Studio One only with stock instruments. However, I wouldn't want to make an orchestral mockup with Studio One stock sounds. Either because my results won't satisfy me or because it's far too tedious to get an okay result through elaborate programming (more elaborate than with good orchestral libraries).

But people like Max Konyi show how to do it and how to make good tracks by making clever decisions with any sounds. For example, he has a whole playlist of videos showing how he creates tracks in all kinds of genres (orchestral game music, jazz funk, synthwave, dubstep, minimal house, chill hop) using only Studio One stock instruments.

 
Last edited:
I've scored almost 300 hours of network tv series, and a couple of dozen features, and 90% of the time it was all stock Logic plugins, with the following caveats:

• For the tv series, most of them used almost no orchestral sounds, so all of the samples were coming out of EXS-24 - my own custom samples, and some that were extracted / converted from Kontakt libraries, like a simple tremolo strings ensemble or something simple like that. I used their electric piano and organ instruments on every cue for the NBC series "Las Vegas" and they were great- better than any third party competitors that were available back then (early 2000's).

• I'd use a couple of Kontakt or a single Omnisphere instance on maybe 5 out of 50 cues on a feature, but almost never on tv. These would be when I really needed the true-legato-transitions of something like Tina Guo Cello, or the tempo-synced measured tremolos from Berlin Series, etc. So, only in emergencies.

• I do a LOT of extracting + converting Kontakt libraries to EXS-24 / Logic Sampler format, and although this eliminates any true-legato transition stuff, and I only get one mic position (usually I use the "mix" sample set), it gives me what I need for my hybrid scores most of the time.

• For analog synth emulations, I still use Logic's ES-2 90% of the time. I know it's 20+ years old and the UI is straight out of the 1990's, but I can get it to do beautiful cine-pulses that have tons of clean bottom end, better than most in terms of clean girth. I did a shootout which I posted on GearSpace a few years back, comparing all of the software MiniMoog Model D plugins against my hardware re-issue Model D, and for a laugh I put ES-2 in there as well. It stood up proudly against all comers. The only time I go third-party is when I need specialty features like the hard wavetables in Arturia's ProphetVS-V or the weird filter types in their Matrix-12v, or for specialized granular stuff like Pigments, Granite, etc., or sometimes Omnisphere. I posted comparisons between my hardware Prophet-VS and Xpander and the Arturia plugins, and I could get as close as makes no difference for the type of sounds I use. Nobody dared to hazard a guess, except for one guy who admitted that he took a piece of silence between the notes and boosted it a zillion db and discovered analog floor noise in the hardware clips that wasn't there in the software clips. Other than that tell-tale aspect, the sonic differences between the two were extremely minor.

• As to processing plugins, Logic's stock plugins have always been on par with the best of the third-party stuff for the most part. Their "vintage console" eq can stand alongside the UAD Neve (and my actual hardware AMS Neve 1084's) for most uses, and I even did a comparison with audio files that I posted on GearSpace a couple of years ago, asking people to guess which was which - UAD Neve vs Logic Neve vs hardware Neve. Again, almost nobody dared to guess. The only tell-tale was in the comparison between UAD Distressor and my hardware Distressors - the hardware reacted ever so slightly differently on the "pip" of each attack, while the software was identical each time around. Good luck picking that out in a full mix.

• But in recent years, some specialty and targeted plugins have eclipsed what Logic's stock stuff can do, like Waves Scheps Omni Channel, Waves "artist strips" like their dedicated JJP and Eddie Kramer Gtrs/Vox/Keys/Drums plugins (these are pretty great actually), and various other specialty plugins like ReFuse LowEnder, Ozone, BlackHole, McDSP SA-3, SSL and Brainworx console plugins, etc. Still, Logic's Tape Delay and Space Designer are on every mix I do, and their plain-jane compressor is still my default go-to until I need explosive destruction like from Kush UBK-1 or Pusher. In a GearSpace thread you'll find that Serben Ghenea still uses the ancient Metric Halo Channel Strip plugin as his default go-to for his chart-topping pop mixes. So old / cheap doesn't mean bad by any means.

• As good as Logic's stock plugins are, I still buy way too many plugins out of curiosity and "just in case". Almost 2,000 on my rig at the moment, all working perfectly. But my template is all stock plugins, and I deploy third-party stuff on an as-needed basis. The main reason I only used stock plugins for the tv series I did was because those ran for many years, and I was constantly re-purposing cues from season 1 into episodes in season 6, so I never wanted to be left out in the cold, and I never was. Similarly with the SAW horror movie franchise, which I've been scoring for 20 years now (!!!) and I still need to use excerpts from the first movie. So it's a good thing that most everything is stock plugins (or is bounced to audio), but that's a special case and not typical for most composers.

If I had to go back to stock plugins I wouldn't lose any sleep.
 
No I would not. I mostly create rock/metal and other band stuffs. I need the round-robins more than anything else in an instrument, and that's where stock DAW plugins fall short. I also need good ampsims, again, something that stock plugins usually can't provide.

However, for synths, EQ, compressors, chorus and other general modulations, I can definitely live with just stock plugins.
 
For stock plugins I'd be happy with Bitwig or Live. They are fantastic.

Hey @charlieclouser how come you try to record so much stuff into EXS? Is it for performance reasons? Backwards compat? Reliability?
 
Hey @charlieclouser how come you try to record so much stuff into EXS? Is it for performance reasons? Backwards compat? Reliability?
All of the above. My template has 768 instances of EXS and loads in seconds. CPU and disc usage are basically zero, it's astonishing really. I can have dozens of EXS's chugging away on 16th notes with velocity crossfades, thousands of voices playing, and even on my ancient Mac Pro 6,1 12-core cylinders the CPU meters are all below 25%, but one instance of Kontakt pegs the last core!

I started doing the extract + convert thing 20 years ago when Kontakt (and GigaSampler) were just too flaky and hogging resources to use more than a couple instances, and by now I have a few workflows that I'm super fast at to do the conversion. Of course, Kontakt v6+v7 are locked down so all I can get out of them is the raw WAVs (if they're unlocked libraries that is), but for k5 libs I can still use the dreaded Chicken Systems Translator - and as ugly as it is, it does work. But I can still use AutoSampler or some other manual tricks to suck the content out.

I came up on hardware samplers, and since I barely use "real" orchestral instruments at all, I don't need articulation switching, multiple mic positions, etc. Just gimme the raw samples. Most of my favorite and most-used sounds are just a single sample spread across 88 keys, Fairlight style. And EXS is just so dang fast to use - building maps is ridiculously fast compared to Kontakt. Not that it's more powerful than Kontakt - it's not - but I'm so fast after 20 years on it that by this point I'm in too deep to leave it behind.

Plus EXS libraries cannot be copy protected, so they are instantly transportable to multiple rooms and rigs. I'm doing a presentation at the Waldorf booth at NAMM and I can bring an entire cue from a SAW movie on a pocket SSD and it will load in seconds on whatever MacBook they happen to scrounge up - no serial numbers, iLok, or NI Access needed. Even my biggest cues will load and play just fine on my 12-year-old i7 MacBook Pro or my m2 MacBook Air 15", and my m1max MacBook doesn't even blink.

Also (not to sound like too much of a wanker) so many of the Kontakt libraries look so impressive with their fancy UI panels, but when you strip all that away and are just dealing with the raw WAVs you can see that a lot of sample libraries are just not that great. So I prefer to level the playing field by housing everything in the ugliest, plainest looking sampler on earth - and that's exactly what EXS is!

But the biggest workflow improvement is the fact that you can browse EXS Instruments from Logic's built-in browser, using arrow keys to navigate. Instruments load so fast that I never see a progress bar, and it NEVER throws a "sample not found" dialog. If the samples are on a drive that's mounted and Spotlight has indexed it, the sample will be found no matter where it is. No "Batch Resave" needed! It's just so fast to use and so lightweight that I just roll my eyes when Kontakt is chugging along trying to load a zillion mic positions I don't need.

I do still buy tons of Kontakt libraries (almost 32tb so far) and it is nice to have them on hand just in case, but the heavy lifting on all my scores is done by EXS.
 
All of the above. My template has 768 instances of EXS and loads in seconds. CPU and disc usage are basically zero, it's astonishing really. I can have dozens of EXS's chugging away on 16th notes with velocity crossfades, thousands of voices playing, and even on my ancient Mac Pro 6,1 12-core cylinders the CPU meters are all below 25%, but one instance of Kontakt pegs the last core!

I started doing the extract + convert thing 20 years ago when Kontakt (and GigaSampler) were just too flaky and hogging resources to use more than a couple instances, and by now I have a few workflows that I'm super fast at to do the conversion. Of course, Kontakt v6+v7 are locked down so all I can get out of them is the raw WAVs (if they're unlocked libraries that is), but for k5 libs I can still use the dreaded Chicken Systems Translator - and as ugly as it is, it does work. But I can still use AutoSampler or some other manual tricks to suck the content out.

I came up on hardware samplers, and since I barely use "real" orchestral instruments at all, I don't need articulation switching, multiple mic positions, etc. Just gimme the raw samples. Most of my favorite and most-used sounds are just a single sample spread across 88 keys, Fairlight style. And EXS is just so dang fast to use - building maps is ridiculously fast compared to Kontakt. Not that it's more powerful than Kontakt - it's not - but I'm so fast after 20 years on it that by this point I'm in too deep to leave it behind.

Plus EXS libraries cannot be copy protected, so they are instantly transportable to multiple rooms and rigs. I'm doing a presentation at the Waldorf booth at NAMM and I can bring an entire cue from a SAW movie on a pocket SSD and it will load in seconds on whatever MacBook they happen to scrounge up - no serial numbers, iLok, or NI Access needed. Even my biggest cues will load and play just fine on my 12-year-old i7 MacBook Pro or my m2 MacBook Air 15", and my m1max MacBook doesn't even blink.

Also (not to sound like too much of a wanker) so many of the Kontakt libraries look so impressive with their fancy UI panels, but when you strip all that away and are just dealing with the raw WAVs you can see that a lot of sample libraries are just not that great. So I prefer to level the playing field by housing everything in the ugliest, plainest looking sampler on earth - and that's exactly what EXS is!

But the biggest workflow improvement is the fact that you can browse EXS Instruments from Logic's built-in browser, using arrow keys to navigate. Instruments load so fast that I never see a progress bar, and it NEVER throws a "sample not found" dialog. If the samples are on a drive that's mounted and Spotlight has indexed it, the sample will be found no matter where it is. No "Batch Resave" needed! It's just so fast to use and so lightweight that I just roll my eyes when Kontakt is chugging along trying to load a zillion mic positions I don't need.

I do still buy tons of Kontakt libraries (almost 32tb so far) and it is nice to have them on hand just in case, but the heavy lifting on all my scores is done by EXS.
Thanks for the detailed response!

Now your signature makes more sense!
 
I've scored almost 300 hours of network tv series, and a couple of dozen features, and 90% of the time it was all stock Logic plugins, with the following caveats:

• For the tv series, most of them used almost no orchestral sounds, so all of the samples were coming out of EXS-24 - my own custom samples, and some that were extracted / converted from Kontakt libraries, like a simple tremolo strings ensemble or something simple like that. I used their electric piano and organ instruments on every cue for the NBC series "Las Vegas" and they were great- better than any third party competitors that were available back then (early 2000's).

• I'd use a couple of Kontakt or a single Omnisphere instance on maybe 5 out of 50 cues on a feature, but almost never on tv. These would be when I really needed the true-legato-transitions of something like Tina Guo Cello, or the tempo-synced measured tremolos from Berlin Series, etc. So, only in emergencies.

• I do a LOT of extracting + converting Kontakt libraries to EXS-24 / Logic Sampler format, and although this eliminates any true-legato transition stuff, and I only get one mic position (usually I use the "mix" sample set), it gives me what I need for my hybrid scores most of the time.

• For analog synth emulations, I still use Logic's ES-2 90% of the time. I know it's 20+ years old and the UI is straight out of the 1990's, but I can get it to do beautiful cine-pulses that have tons of clean bottom end, better than most in terms of clean girth. I did a shootout which I posted on GearSpace a few years back, comparing all of the software MiniMoog Model D plugins against my hardware re-issue Model D, and for a laugh I put ES-2 in there as well. It stood up proudly against all comers. The only time I go third-party is when I need specialty features like the hard wavetables in Arturia's ProphetVS-V or the weird filter types in their Matrix-12v, or for specialized granular stuff like Pigments, Granite, etc., or sometimes Omnisphere. I posted comparisons between my hardware Prophet-VS and Xpander and the Arturia plugins, and I could get as close as makes no difference for the type of sounds I use. Nobody dared to hazard a guess, except for one guy who admitted that he took a piece of silence between the notes and boosted it a zillion db and discovered analog floor noise in the hardware clips that wasn't there in the software clips. Other than that tell-tale aspect, the sonic differences between the two were extremely minor.

• As to processing plugins, Logic's stock plugins have always been on par with the best of the third-party stuff for the most part. Their "vintage console" eq can stand alongside the UAD Neve (and my actual hardware AMS Neve 1084's) for most uses, and I even did a comparison with audio files that I posted on GearSpace a couple of years ago, asking people to guess which was which - UAD Neve vs Logic Neve vs hardware Neve. Again, almost nobody dared to guess. The only tell-tale was in the comparison between UAD Distressor and my hardware Distressors - the hardware reacted ever so slightly differently on the "pip" of each attack, while the software was identical each time around. Good luck picking that out in a full mix.

• But in recent years, some specialty and targeted plugins have eclipsed what Logic's stock stuff can do, like Waves Scheps Omni Channel, Waves "artist strips" like their dedicated JJP and Eddie Kramer Gtrs/Vox/Keys/Drums plugins (these are pretty great actually), and various other specialty plugins like ReFuse LowEnder, Ozone, BlackHole, McDSP SA-3, SSL and Brainworx console plugins, etc. Still, Logic's Tape Delay and Space Designer are on every mix I do, and their plain-jane compressor is still my default go-to until I need explosive destruction like from Kush UBK-1 or Pusher. In a GearSpace thread you'll find that Serben Ghenea still uses the ancient Metric Halo Channel Strip plugin as his default go-to for his chart-topping pop mixes. So old / cheap doesn't mean bad by any means.

• As good as Logic's stock plugins are, I still buy way too many plugins out of curiosity and "just in case". Almost 2,000 on my rig at the moment, all working perfectly. But my template is all stock plugins, and I deploy third-party stuff on an as-needed basis. The main reason I only used stock plugins for the tv series I did was because those ran for many years, and I was constantly re-purposing cues from season 1 into episodes in season 6, so I never wanted to be left out in the cold, and I never was. Similarly with the SAW horror movie franchise, which I've been scoring for 20 years now (!!!) and I still need to use excerpts from the first movie. So it's a good thing that most everything is stock plugins (or is bounced to audio), but that's a special case and not typical for most composers.

If I had to go back to stock plugins I wouldn't lose any sleep.
If you turn on the camera and record your comment pronounced, you will get a lot of views in YouTube. Very detailed and convincing position on the use of stock plugins, thank you.
 
it is so much easier to just load them up and play rather than endlessly searching for the "right" library to use
I like this idea. I am a preset surfer in my genre (electronic) but that’s partly because Live has never had a meaningful preset browser. That changes in Live 12 to a point so perhaps that will encourage more use of stock sounds.
I do delete plugins on a regular basis if I’ve not been using them
I do you sell up? I kinda feel like if I didn’t use a plugin just deleting it would be kinda painful (I don’t earn cash for this)

As good as Logic's stock plugins are, I still buy way too many plugins out of curiosity and "just in case".
I think curiosity is a big one for sure. Personally I’ve tried to be somewhat strategic in picking up tools that aren’t native to the DAW. But having stuff on hand has been enjoyable if only for the sake of exploring. Love the post and completely agree that I too wouldn’t lose any sleep over using only stock.

I recently trialled Logic as an Ableton user, and given that the stock sounds and effects in both have their pros and cons, I think if I were starting again, I would be tempted to get both and try and run them linked up. If I were to make a list of the plugins I’d want to keep with the ground they both cover, it would be an amazingly short list.
 
I think I should clarify that while I do use Logic’s stock plugins, I don’t use any of their stock presets, Apple Loops, or EXS / Sampler patches…. they are…. how can I say this nicely… not appropriate for the kind of music I do. (I don’t want to say they totally suck ass, but….).

I use EXS / Sampler because it’s a great platform for me to deploy my own samples, and to receive the cut-down, extracted / converted samples from decent Kontakt libraries.

I use ES-2 because it’s a quick-n-easy analog synth emulation that can sound good, but I only auditioned the first handful of factory presets 20 years ago before I just initialized the thing and started from scratch. Now I have enough of my own scratch-built patches saved that I just pick one as a starting point and tweak to taste.

As to Logic’s electric piano and organ emulations, it’s not really possible to use them without using the “stock” sounds to some degree, but I still programmed my own set of parameters and fx chains to get what I wanted. But then again they‘re just pianos and organs, pretty basic stuff. No need to load up some 4gb organ sample bank for that.

I do use one stock Space Designer reverb impulse: “Piano Hall 2.3sec”. but I also have about 20 gigs of impulse responses that I’ve made or bought from third-party vendors. Such is my shame…

It’s the ENGINES of these plugins that I think are good, not the supplied presets. Gotta roll yer own. But then my use case is maybe not typical…
 
When I was using Logic, between v. 2.00 and 10.00, I rarely felt the need for third-party instruments. Except for Alchemy which I bought... but so did also Apple :) eventually. Today my Macs cannot run a modern Mac OS that is required for Logic and I think I could do quite well with stock Bitwig Studio... if I was allowed to also use UA plugins (SSL, Fairchild) and Fabfilter Q-3 (for its fast dynamic EQ workflow). The sampler in Bitwig is the fastest I have seen, I can take a dozen samples of notes from an analog synth and drop them into the sampler and it figures out the pitch and places them ready-to-play on the keyboard. For me, that's worth a lot because I have acquired lots of custom sample sets over the decades and I know them well. No need to search for sound patches when in Bitwig. I currently work in Cubase and use only third-party instruments.
 
I’ve been toying with seeing what I could do with just a DAW and all the included stock sounds since I’ve neglected them.
I get the appeal of limiting choice to either spark creativity or reduce decision fatigue, but... I use Reaper. It has no bundled samples to my knowledge and the stock instrument plugins are "pretty barebones". I'm sure I could still make music with it through resampling, but that challenge is one level too far for my taste.
 
I'd been (nearly) Logic stock only for about 5 years. I still have a handful of SA player libs on hand (can't ever let go of my multi-mic orchestral stuff) but other than that, it's Logic all the way.

I'm also in the final process of purging Kontakt from my life (I find it a creative buzzkill) and am currently auto-sampling some of my favourite patches into Logic's Sampler for my own use in a post-Native Instruments world.

But there's one principle reason I went in this direction: Headspace.

We see it all the time on this forum. The chase for the new, the better. That niggling feeling that the library you just brought for £400 isn't really going to be used. Being a part of that was becoming an unpleasant distraction for me. Should I be using this? Or that one?

I believe keeping your horizons smaller can be really good for creativity. Less questioning. It certainly works for me.

I'm also old enough to remember Atari ST's, ADAT and the rest of it. Back in those days, music creation was more of a hands on affair. Samples? You had to find them. Sounds? Make them.
There's still a large part of me that likes to work that way, so why not indulge it within the confines of time and cost.
 
Last edited:
For orchestral sounds? Definitely not. For effects, dynamics, etc? Yes, I could easily just use the stock plugins within Logic and Cubase.
 
I guess it depends on a particular DAW and the styles of music you are in. I'm a REAPER user since 2016. after several years of using PT. With this DAW, investing in a sound library is a must as it doesn't come with any VI's, although it ships with a ton of simple-looking yet highly capable plugins. My strategy for sounds was to get Komplete Standard as a solid cornerstone and to invest in 3rd party Kontakt libraries according to my needs and means. And using quality yet free resources as much as I can, which are pretty abundant these days.
 
I do you sell up? I kinda feel like if I didn’t use a plugin just deleting it would be kinda painful (I don’t earn cash for this)
Just a hobby here - no earnings.

I can always reinstall the plugin or library if I miss it or feel I need it. It’s pretty rare, though. I’ve done that several times and I eventually delete it again. At that point it’s pretty much dead to me so I might try to sell it, depending.

I try to resist impulse buying (now). The plugin has to be different or better than what I’ve got. Unused plugins are just clutter and a distraction for me. I’d rather focus on what I like to use or need to use.

I also try to avoid buying Kontakt libraries unless there’s no other option. They tend to be more overpriced and cannot be demoed and cannot be resold. They’re also almost always less flexible, but often there’s no other choice to get some sounds. There’s no synth that accurately and realistically synthesizes a violin, for example.

It’s a learning process, and I see no problem focusing on my favorite tools instead of seeing my full “collection” in my DAW.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom