Three telltale characteristics that scream 'fake' about some digital modelling amps?

Everyone with the chance, space and budget to play a tube amp in an ear protected environment and an engineer taking care of the rest (in recording/mixing) will say that.

Rest is speculation, even EVH was working with Mike Scuffham (SGear) on a plugin.

Convenience over cork sniffing.

We have the opposite example with the guitarist from U2, who exclusively uses digital modeling amps in the Sphere, as far as I know.

cedricm said:

We have the opposite example with the guitarist from U2, who exclusively uses digital modeling amps in the Sphere, as far as I know.

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Niet, he always played at least with a VOX amp since the beginning (UK in the 80's = Vox for Pop, Marshall for Rock). All the digital FX you can name, yes. But amps are tube amps, and several, he even has a signature Fender Deluxe Reverb.

cedricm said:

"There are three telltale characteristics that scream 'fake' to me"...

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He's probably right, but I'm not gonna waste any time caring about what he thinks. I'll just get back to happily working with my TONEX/NAM/NDSP, etc...

Personally I think in terms of sound, they have gotten quite good, with perhaps a few nuances, and people are so used to hearing digital modeled amps that nobody is going to notice in a mix. But yes...there is a difference, its a difference I notice when playing, it may be feel more then sound...but it also affects the way I play too. Playing through real tubes into a real cab is just more fun. A tube amp responds to me in a very physical way.

some of the modelers are better then others. they have gotten better and better over time, but I still can feel a difference, and in some cases hear. I will get ear fatigue easier with modeled amps.

The one modeler that really worked ok for me was the Vox Tonelab, which actually had a tube in it that vox used in a non-standard way for modeling power amp stage. I used to run that into an actual Mesa boogie 2:90 power amp and into an actual speaker cabinet (not direct out) and got many compliments for the tone and as well the feel was very tube-ampy. But it sounds a bit dated now as well as had some noise issues, and no other digital modeler ever since has given me that same real amp feel, not that I have tried them all per say, but I have tried quite a few. Can't stand the Helix stuff for example. Just sounds like a cold sterile lifeless trash to me.

all that being said, the sheer convenience of digitally modeled amps is generally worth it for home recording and small band gigging. If I were U2 with technicians and roadies...no question whatsoever I would be using real amps. Especially for the Edge...his tone and feel has to be just right. I have always felt that the faster you play, the less you need to worry about perfect amp tone and feel. And I don't play fast hahaha

This will never stop being a headline, because it will never stop being an apples-to-oranges comparison. They are always comparing the sound of a tube amp played live in a room to a modeled "recorded" sound. It's never the sound of the recorded tube amp vs the recorded modeled amp.

Of course the live tube amp sounds and feels better- it's super loud and super dynamic. Those qualities are almost always a negative when recorded and put into a mix. I've done blind A/B comparisons with recorded-only sound (real tube head vs. NAM into a cab sim, out of studio monitors) and nobody can tell the difference.

I think there is more to it then just being "super loud". I am particularly talking about the spongey feeling that is lacking in modelers.

no doubt digital modelers are way easier to record.

Dewdman42 said:

. . .The one modeler that really worked ok for me was the Vox Tonelab, which actually had a tube in it that vox used in a non-standard way for modeling power amp stage. I used to run that into an actual Mesa boogie 2:90 power amp and into an actual speaker cabinet (not direct out)

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Similar to the Vox Tonelab is the Valvetronix series: I had a little one, vt20+, that I ran a direct out to my keyboard amp (a Roland KC500 with a JBL D-130) -- Worked *great* with my Ric 360/12 (!)

yep. The tone lab and valvetronix series actually used a tube, in a non standard way, as part of the power amp modeling process...and in a way that specifically affected feel.

Dewdman42 said:

I think there is more to it then just being "super loud". I am particularly talking about the spongey feeling that is lacking in modelers.

no doubt digital modelers are way easier to record.

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I agree, from a playing perspective only SGear and NDSP Plini have had the valve sag sponge that happens at all gain levels but with the master cranked to ear splitting.

I guess it’s like the whole sampled vs modelled piano thing. I much prefer to play Pianoteq as it has the feel and response but prefer the general recorded tone of the sampled ones.

no question I am not equipped to properly record a tube amp. So I make due with modelers, also disattisfied by the feel.

When I used to use a tone lab LE in combination with mesa boogie 2:90 amp into real cab...I did get the spongey feel without being too loud. I feel Vox got that right in that modeler. Unfortunately its preamp sounds are a bit dated by today's standards.

That actual TONE is so much more related to the cab sim...and these days the TONEX and other things similar as Kemper, etc..basically profiling...is getting the tones to be very very exact and though its a bit of a hunt and peck process to find the one that you like, tone wise....like you said..kind of like using samples.

But even what I will play and how I will play it will be different with real tubes and electricity end to end...honestly the guitar almost plays itself in some ways,...but I always feel with the modeler like its not.

But simple truth is I am not setup to record a real tube amp, and probably never will be again at this point...and also for live playing, while its super fun to play through tubes...its pain in the ass (literally) to haul tube amps to shows where the only roadie is me myself and I. So.... modelers win. I make these comments only because I want the modeling community to keep working in it. Its good...but its not really quite all the way there yet. Just as Pianoteq has been told to keep working on it for quite some time, and they have come a long way, but could be even better also.

I cork sniff with my Benson Monarch, beautiful, soulful, dynamic as only a (very fn good!) valve amp can be. But I have a lot of fun playing around with my tonemaster pro modeller. It makes noise and you can do creative, musical things with that noise (And in stereo!).we’re spoiled for choice nowadays, ain’t that great?

As others have said, it's usually the cab sim that gives that harsh 'middley digital sound'. I speak as someone who has had a lot of valve amps back in the day.
There's no denying their flexibility for sure and in a mix, most people won't be able to tell the difference - but it's there (IMO)

If you sit in a room, and do a side by side comparison of the same, isolated playing through an actual tube amp, and even a really good amp sim, yes I believe a discriminating listener is going to hear some degree of difference. And the player is likely to feel some degree of difference.

But add in some context in terms of recording and mixing within a song or other recording, and those differences, in my opinion start to become so small that they’re creeping up on insignificant.

Some of the better sims have really closed the gap. Mixwave’s Milkman is a great example of a vintage tube amp that sounds and plays incredibly close to the real thing. Softube and Neural DSP have done similarly in the higher gain territory.

Yes, if you’re a famous player, on the road or in the studio, and paying people to lug around those big tube amps, and you have paid techs to keep them in good working order, yes, I suppose those tiny differentiations are worth using the real thing.

For the rest of us, not so much. Hell, for many of us who even own a lot of tube amps, it just isn’t feasible, especially at home, to do what’s necessary to get the best results from a tube amp.

I spent a long time believing that we’d never get to the point of having serviceable options outside of the real thing. Now, I find more immediacy and more inspiration from sims.

cedricm said:

"There are three telltale characteristics that scream 'fake' to me": Bon Jovi guitarist Phil X on what he doesn't like about some digital modelling amps

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Bon Jovi is still a thing?

babylonwaves said:

Bon Jovi is still a thing?

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I’m more confused as to who the hell Phil x is, what happened to Richie Sambora

I'm not down on sims as such, I currently use a combo of the Overloud 'Rockguy' (Tom Scholz 'Rockman' emulation and the 'SaturnLo' (DiBiQuadro) cab sim and it's a very usable sound. The Neural DSP ones I've tried, look great, have loads of features etc. but are very much simulations once you listen to them without FX.

EanS said:

Niet, he always played at least with a VOX amp since the beginning (UK in the 80's = Vox for Pop, Marshall for Rock). All the digital FX you can name, yes. But amps are tube amps, and several, he even has a signature Fender Deluxe Reverb.

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Niet again,

Kent said:

Niet again,

The Edge confirms he's swapped his tube amps for Universal Audio’s UAFX pedals at U2's The Sphere residency

As a number of fans have speculated, The Edge has confirmed that he's ditched his tube amps for digital pedals for U2's Las Vegas shows.

guitar.com

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OK I’m ready to get flamed
I might be in the minority here but has anyone here actually listened to,cared or paid attention to anything from U2 in the last 30 to 35 years?
I would never think about U2 as a reference point for a real or cutting edge guitar sound for many years if ever let alone in 2024.
IMO although the Edge does some really interesting things with his wash of effects I doubt most if any people would be able to distinguish anything he plays in U2 whether it was created with an amp sim or the real thing.