Mac Studio for Composers - Tested!
- Thread starter David Kudell
- Start date
Pier
Senior Member
Amazing video David!
Here's a doc with more info on Kontakt and SSDs. Ths gist of it, is that Kontakt init times are mostly CPU based. Samples will load faster from faster drives but this happens in the background after the Kontakt instance has loaded.
Here's a doc with more info on Kontakt and SSDs. Ths gist of it, is that Kontakt init times are mostly CPU based. Samples will load faster from faster drives but this happens in the background after the Kontakt instance has loaded.
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Vik
Vi-k
Towards the end this video, I saw a reference to two different buffer sizes that make me wonder why this video wasn’t exclusively made with the kind of buffer sizes all users who want as low real time latency as reliably possible would use.
This is, according to my own experience, particularly important for those without very generous RAM amounts (most people don’t have 192 gb RAM!!) - especially when using the 6k option in Kontakt.
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David Kudell
Senior Member
That test was using VEPro, and the point was with 1700 tracks loaded (which does consume some CPU even when idle), how many can you still play back.Towards the end this video, I saw a reference to two different buffer sizes that make me wonder why this video wasn’t exclusively made with the kind of buffer sizes all users who want as low real time latency as reliably possible would use.
This is, according to my own experience, particularly important for those without very generous RAM amounts (most people don’t have 192 gb RAM!!) - especially when using the 6k option in Kontakt.
As far as the buffer, (spoiler alert for the next video about VEPro on the Mac Studio) the reason for 192 is because in my testing, that's the lowest you can go using VEPro without getting a small pop when stopping playback. This is likely due to the fact that there's only 4ms of latency at 192, and the audio needs to travel from VEP back to Cubase.
The reason why I didn't test the number of disabled tracks that can playback simultaneously is that a) someone else here already tested like 1000 tracks of that and b) the number is so much higher than anyone realistically will ever need. Basically, there's no need to worry about number of simultaneous tracks of playback...as I show earlier in the video, at 64 buffer the CPU is hardly working playing back over 100 tracks.
Vik
Vi-k
Thanks for your reply. Logic doesn't come with an option to select a 192 buffer, but the roundtrip latency (with RME Babyface Pro on a 2020 i7 iMac) is 7,3 ms @ 128 and 12,7 @ 256. I'm sure Apple Silicon Macs are a little better.
The main argument for using various PCI based Pro Tools systems back when relying on only native systems started to become usable was the low latency they had (without losing reliability). There were several discussions over at (what's today is called) Gearspace, where tolerable roundtrip latency was discussed, and around 10-15 years ago, it was possible to get a 3.3 ms roundtrip when using the 32 buffer @ 44.1 kHz. That was almost as good as the DSP based Pro Tools systems, but a lot more unstable.
Today's systems are of course a lot more powerful, but even when using the 64 buffer the best latency roundtrip I can get, even when using a 64 buffer, is 4,7 ms. Of course latency when working with virtual instruments is a different story than the audio comparisons I mentioned above, but IMO high latency is still a problem we need to deal with, which is why comparing systems using settings which pretty much cover up for what these systems can do in real life situations aren't (for me personally) that interesting. But your info is still interesting and relevant – especially what you wrote in your last post. If 192 is the lowest you can go using VEPro without getting a small pop when starting playback, that's a real bummer, but in my experience, using the 6k setting with demanding sample libraries isn't such a good idea I thought it was a while ago.
I've seen several tests performed with roundtrip latency results that are way higher than any of us would want to work with – resulting, of course, in very high track counts. Such reviews usually don't mention the elephant in the room: you'll get more tracks than you need (which isn't really interesting) if you use very high buffer settings (which isn't really interesting either).
If your powerful system, with a massive 192 gb RAM, can't give us a system that's (with the kind of workflow you describe*), my first test when I go Apple Native is to figure out the max. number of real life tracks I reliable can get by experiment with changing Logic buffer settings and those Kontakt (etc) settings, unless.... have any of you experimented with these settings on AS Macs lately?
*Personally, I don't plant to use VEPro, and won't need more than circa 100 tracks.
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David Kudell
Senior Member
I’m pretty sure the latency (off the top of my head) with buffer 64 it’s in the 2ms territory, and that’s easy to achieve with hundreds of tracks not using VEP. You can even do 32 buffer.
I personally find 192 great for orchestral work and VEP…I’m able to play percussion parts or spiccatos with little noticeable latency. Perhaps the M2 ultra is helping out here. I get for recording live instruments you would want to go lower. Before this on my iMac I was using 756 buffer with external VEP servers so this is a huge increase from that.
Vik
Vi-k
So – if 4ms isn't the total, real roundtrip latency... do you know what it is?
ack when I moved from Pro Tools HD-systems (with PCI based DSP) to relying on native solutions only, I tried hard to like the native systems as much as I possibly could, but I always had a problem with a roundtrip latency above 4ms.
And – this was all about audio recordings back then. Working with orchestral libraries, we need to deal with the extra latency that comes on top of the easily measurable roundtrip latency.
Soundthrills
Cinematic sound begins here.
Thanks for the amazing video David! Really great testing!
blaggins
Senior Member
Fantastic video @David Kudell. It was very interesting to see how little of a difference disk speed makes to sample and project load times. Kind of goes to show you how unoptimized Kontakt and Sine are (and let's be honest probably every other sample player as well, not just those two) for super fast disks. I suppose it's good news since we don't have to worry too much about using internal storage for samples. I wonder which player will be the first to re-architect their I/O access model and thread pooling to take advantage of 5000+ MB/s transfer speeds.
What's the bottom line (for people who don't want to watch a video)?
That was my big takeaway, too. It does make me rethink whether I need to have so many libraries saved internally. Even externally, here I was trying to stick with NVMe drives instead of the cheap spinning ones!
I'm totally with you on preferring text over watching rambling videos, but this one's worth watching. It's well edited, so it's not the usual 5 minutes of info spread into 30 minutes of video. There's a lot of context to "the numbers," so I'm not sure a dry stats rundown would do the trick.
Marsen
Senior Alien Member
Yes,
a big thank you for David, doing so much work, and getting valuable findings on this questions.
I‘m too in the process of transition to Mac Silicon, waiting for M3 Studio.
And the real life experiences on internal versus external SSD Storage speeds, Ram needs, Performance/ load times of Kontakt, Sine, etc., I guess are really helpful for all composers, going the Apple Silicon route.
a big thank you for David, doing so much work, and getting valuable findings on this questions.
I‘m too in the process of transition to Mac Silicon, waiting for M3 Studio.
And the real life experiences on internal versus external SSD Storage speeds, Ram needs, Performance/ load times of Kontakt, Sine, etc., I guess are really helpful for all composers, going the Apple Silicon route.
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David Kudell
Senior Member
I’m sure you meant the cheap Sata USB SSDs (and not the old school spinning drives) but just in case someone reads this and doesn’t watch the video, wanted to clarify that’s what I tested.
You can run Logic at a 128-sample buffer and VE Pro doesn't click.
That's with one Kontakt instance playing a Rhodes. If I put it in VE Pro, it clicks all the time at my usual 64-sample buffer - not when I stop it, I mean when I play the controller keyboard - but if I run the same thing inside Logic I can run it at 64 no problem.
I'm not saying that means VE Pro is less efficient, just that with a single instrument it doesn't seem to pay.
rAC
Active Member
@David Kudell Thank you for this video. I’m hoping someone can do similar testing on the 128 Gb and 64Gb Ultras.
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David Kudell
Senior Member
I’m not sure what you mean by voice count, do you mean simultaneous playback? Other than the specific VEPro test I did in the first video, I decided it wasn’t really necessary to do any other of those types of tests…because the result always ends up being “way more than anyone could possibly, practically need.”
holywilly
Senior Member
Right, the simultaneous playback, excuse my poor English.I’m not sure what you mean by voice count, do you mean simultaneous playback? Other than the specific VEPro test I did in the first video, I decided it wasn’t really necessary to do any other of those types of tests…because the result always ends up being “way more than anyone could possibly, practically need.”
What I'm aiming for is smooth, glitch-free playback when using multi-mics instruments like VSL Synchron and Spitfire Abbey Road Orchestra within VEP.
dohm
Musical Voyager
I also upgraded a month ago from a 2019 iMac to a maxed out Mac Studio m2 ultra. Thanks for the video and great info!
I love this computer! My main reason for also having a fast nvme external drive is that it makes any transferring of files, sample libraries, backups, etc., really fast and that gives me more flexibility in moving things around anytime I want. I set my buffers size in logic at 64 and have not had a single pop or glitch since using the computer. Computer has handled everything with ease. I do everything on the computer, no VEP.
I love this computer! My main reason for also having a fast nvme external drive is that it makes any transferring of files, sample libraries, backups, etc., really fast and that gives me more flexibility in moving things around anytime I want. I set my buffers size in logic at 64 and have not had a single pop or glitch since using the computer. Computer has handled everything with ease. I do everything on the computer, no VEP.
