THB vs Berlin Brass

THB has more punch and is more cinematic. BB sounds more like classical brass. So I guess it depends on the style of music you write.

daviddln said:

THB has more punch and is more cinematic. BB sounds more like classical brass. So I guess it depends on the style of music you write.

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Yes, I know that's how it's supposed to work, BB for concert work, THB for media/cinema, but I've found the THB solo trombone can be very classical, and the THB a6 horns sound quite credible in that context as well. I also have the BB trombone 1, which I don't like nearly as well as the THB solo trombone even for the kind of music I generally write, and the BB trumpet 1, which I adore and has caused the current indecision. BB has quite a lot more articulations, but fewer dynamic layers.

What I don't know is how well BB is working on Sine these days, since the early reports were that it had significant issues. The trumpet and trombone seem fine, though I think the trombone still has some tuning issues. And BB on Kontakt was known for having different set ups for each instrument, so F on one instrument might be mf on another. This made for quite a lot of fussy programming when dealing with sections.

I bought THB first. Like you - I started with BB trumpets and really loved it. I ended up completing BB but really, I found the rest to be a bit of a disappointment compared to THB. Nothing is terrible. But very inconsistent, especially compared to THB. Your experience with the THB trombone is aligns with my experience. THB can do classical very well too, especially the unprocessed mic set.

jbuhler said:

Yes, I know that's how it's supposed to work, BB for concert work, THB for media/cinema, but I've found the THB solo trombone can be very classical, and the THB a6 horns sound quite credible in that context as well. I also have the BB trombone 1, which I don't like nearly as well as the THB solo trombone even for the kind of music I generally write, and the BB trumpet 1, which I adore and has caused the current indecision. BB has quite a lot more articulations, but fewer dynamic layers.

What I don't know is how well BB is working on Sine these days, since the early reports were that it had significant issues. The trumpet and trombone seem fine, though I think the trombone still has some tuning issues. And BB on Kontakt was known for having different set ups for each instrument, so F on one instrument might be mf on another. This made for quite a lot of fussy programming when dealing with sections.

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Yes, BB has tuning issues on SINE. OT said they will fix them but it's been almost a year since the initial reports and there are still no updates, so I don't know.

One of the big differences is that in addition to ensembles, Berlin Brass has all of the instruments recorded individually as well. So, if you do want to write for 4 horns, you can actually record different MIDI for 4 individually recorded horns instead of relying on the same patch or resorting to an a4 patch like you have to do in THB.

Question! Do you have CSB?

I have a lot of the THB, I have AROOF (and scoring selections), BBC PRO, & Cinebrass core, Sonore, and descant horn & at the moment CSB is my favorite for these reasons:

It can go very loud and FFF like THB.

It can go very low, smooth and quiet.

It handles cinematic AND classical very well.

The transitions from low dynamics to high dynamics are the smoothest from any library I own. The cross fades are almost non existent.

The legato is buttery.

The same note repetitions using the mod wheel are great. Better than OT stuff. (Bbc brass cannot do this. I wish they would implement it).

I love the workflow. You can sketch in fast lines with shorts using marcato mode and then use expression maps later to fine tune the proper shorts if you want it to sound more realistic.
It also blends well with THB.

Baronvonheadless said:

Question! Do you have CSB?

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If he returned to the CS2 concert hall and made “CB” and “CW” I’d buy those in a heart beat

Zanshin said:

If he returned to the CS2 concert hall and made “CB” and “CW” I’d buy those in a heart beat

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I think CSB with a little bit of reverb fits anywhere! Works well symphonically imo.

CSW if you just use the overhead and main mic, and put a touch of seventh heaven on sounds so great as well.

Imo
EDIT: An Example. For a Symphony I wrote/mocked up, this excerpt is 100% CSW.

When comparing THB with BB, you have got the option of BB on Kontakt. I have BB on Kontakt and I'm pretty happy really but I picked up the THB a6 horns when they went on offer and:

Thanks for all the comments, everyone! Most helpful!

ALittleNightMusic said:

One of the big differences is that in addition to ensembles, Berlin Brass has all of the instruments recorded individually as well. So, if you do want to write for 4 horns, you can actually record different MIDI for 4 individually recorded horns instead of relying on the same patch or resorting to an a4 patch like you have to do in THB.

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Agreed, and that can be very valuable. But that's what makes it fussier to program too. I've been using the THB solo trombone for the trombone section and it usually works just fine; when I need a real section, I use it along with the SSB solo trombone and bass trombone. But 99% it's just THB solo trombone X3 for section and THB solo trombone with SSB a2 trombones and SSB bass trombone doubled up for section solis.

Another advantage of BB: if the solo horn 1, say won't do the passage the way you want, you have three other possibilities. So there is a lot of useful redundancy built in. And BB also has a wider selection of articulations.

Zanshin said:

I bought THB first. Like you - I started with BB trumpets and really loved it. I ended up completing BB but really, I found the rest to be a bit of a disappointment compared to THB. Nothing is terrible. But very inconsistent, especially compared to THB. Your experience with the THB trombone is aligns with my experience. THB can do classical very well too, especially the unprocessed mic set.

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Yes, and for whatever reason my two THB instruments (solo trombone and a6 horns) sit really well with SSB. I basically don't have to do anything other than match volumes; they just work. The Berlin Brass instruments I have (trombone 1 and trumpet 1) are perfectly adequate as well, but I do find I have to work them a bit more to get them to sit.

daviddln said:

Yes, BB has tuning issues on SINE. OT said they will fix them but it's been almost a year since the initial reports and there are still no updates, so I don't know.

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Yes, I don't remember receiving a fix for the trombone tuning issue. I haven't yet encountered any issues with trumpet 1—that doesn't mean they aren't there.

Baronvonheadless said:

Question! Do you have CSB?

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No, I don't have CSB. I'm not fond of the room, especially with the brass, and I don't have either CSS or CSW. Other folks have done great stuff with these libraries, though, so it's no knock on them; they just are not for me (at least not now). (I do long for the inter-instrument consistency though across the set of libraries, and if I ever get the set that will be why.) I'm not doing trailer stuff, and so far I haven't found it hard to get a proper symphonic FFF out of SSB. And when I really want to go over the top, reinforcing with Ark 1 brass has been sufficient.

tc9000 said:

When comparing THB with BB, you have got the option of BB on Kontakt. I have BB on Kontakt and I'm pretty happy really but I picked up the THB a6 horns when they went on offer and:

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I would be getting BB on Sine if I get it, not Kontakt. I never got on all that well with Capsule and so am perfectly happy working in Sine. (I might pick up the woodwinds in Kontakt, though, because it comes with the legacy instruments that are not available in the Sine version.)

^^Right on, I dunno there's just something about CSB to me that sounds more classical than BB in CONTEXT. Not isolation. but in mockups. These two swan lake mockups are what got me to get CSB and CSS! Already had CSW.



(swan lake demo embedded on site)

IMO they destroy the Infinite Brass Mockup of Swan Lake.

Not to derail.
I mean, if you're not doing trailer stuff I'd trust your gut. BB has the most articulations. Do you need them all? That's up to you. But if THB is calling, it's calling. However the low brass is where it shines, and the crossfades are annoying to me.

I don't have SSB.

Compared to TBH, what I like most about BB is having multiple solo 4 horns, 3 trumpets, 2 trombones, to chose from within the same hall and vendor; sometimes one trumpet is too bright so I move to the others without having to leave the library and the room and spend time blending things back in. BB is not terribly consistent though, mismatched articulations, gain, … but it’s workable IMHO.

It'd be nice to hear some demos since the Jurassic Park comparisons were so cool on the Sonore thread.

I have prepped a small excerpt. Don't have time to mock it up this Sunday but the MIDI is available.

It is for 6 horns, 3 trumpets, and 3 trombones so that we can hear all the brass sections. Both Berlin Brass & TH Brass oughta be able to do well.... this could also be a test for if the three separately sampled musicians (in Berlin) for the trombone & trumpet sections make a significant difference.

Here's the midi - previously uploaded version had a mistake -

Baronvonheadless said:

^^Right on, I dunno there's just something about CSB to me that sounds more classical than BB in CONTEXT. Not isolation. but in mockups. These two swan lake mockups are what got me to get CSB and CSS! Already had CSW.

Cinematic Studio Brass – Cinematic Studio Series

cinematicstudioseries.com

(swan lake demo embedded on site)

IMO they destroy the Infinite Brass Mockup of Swan Lake.

Not to derail.
I mean, if you're not doing trailer stuff I'd trust your gut. BB has the most articulations. Do you need them all? That's up to you. But if THB is calling, it's calling. However the low brass is where it shines, and the crossfades are annoying to me.

I don't have SSB.

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Yes, you got this right. THB is calling me, and there is a very real draw of the sound that I know I enjoy working with. I was absolutely going to get THB (and supplement its trumpet with BB) until I started playing with the BB trumpet 1, and found it very inspiring too. Then I started thinking about THB and how many of the instruments are very large ensembles that I don't much use (however fun they would be to have), whereas BB would be adding a lot of useful redundancy of solo instruments.

Olympum said:

Compared to TBH, what I like most about BB is having multiple solo 4 horns, 3 trumpets, 2 trombones, to chose from within the same hall and vendor; sometimes one trumpet is too bright so I move to the others without having to leave the library and the room and spend time blending things back in. BB is not terribly consistent though, mismatched articulations, gain, … but it’s workable IMHO.

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Yes, this nicely summarizes for me both the appeal and the detriments of BB!

I should probably go with THB, as my gut response to sound is often a better predictor for me on how these sorts of things work out.

Isn't THB/JXL only slurred legato but BB has also tongued?

Jackdaw said:

Isn't THB/JXL only slurred legato but BB has also tongued?

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It seems to depend a bit on the instrument. BB all except trombones have retonged, slurred, and run legato. Trombones have slurred and glissando. THB has unspecified legato and runs for all except trombones, which have just unspecified legato. So assuming the unspecified legato in THB is slurred then that summary seems correct.

I think you know the right answer @jbuhler - which is to buy both. Don't fight it.

jbuhler said:

I bought the BB trumpet 1 with my OT holiday voucher, and I kind of love this instrument.

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How does it compare to the updated SSB trumpet total performance patch?