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Roast my book selection : need advices about my first books

Dr Bensmir

Dr Bensmir

Active Member
Hello, so here's my current background:
- I have been learning the piano all by myself since 2/3 years
- I can now improvise fluently at moderate/slow speed in a few keys and a few modes (not a pianist by any stretch of the imagination)
- I understand basic harmony, tonal music with the scale degrees, chord progression and harmonizing a melody (the basics)
- I cannot sight read or read sheet music but I can transcribe it slowly

But now that I don't learn anything new on the beginners tutorials, I want to take my music theory game to the next level. I am investing in a selection of books, and I want you to give me your opinions about what book I should add or remove from the list.
(Already have the samuel adler one).

I want to get better at orchestration, strings voicing, structuring my melodies, phrasing and counterpoint.
I don't care much for 300 pages about each instrument, it's range etc. such information can be found either on google or on the samuel adler book. I prefer having practical exercices. I almost always analyze music using tonal harmony and scale degrees.
I already transcribe alot by ear, but I feel like I need the structure of well written books.

The style I like is Joe Hisaishi, Nobuo Uematsu, Wagner, Holst, Chopin, the lush strings from the 60s film music, jazz and blues (only when it's slow and a bit lyrical), James Horner, James Newton Howard, Tchaïkovski and of course Jeremy Soule
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As much as I like to explore modes, I don't like atonality or too much modulation or extreme chromaticism.

Suggestions !?
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Thanks mighty people of VI
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You have extremely lofty goals (orchestration, counterpoint) for someone who doesn't read music and none of those books will help you if you don't know how to read music.

It sounds like like you have a basic command of the keyboard, so I'd continue down that route and learn to read music with a basic piano lesson book. Then maybe move to Bach chorales which will solidify your understanding of 18th century harmony and voice leading. Then you could look into learning Bach's 2 and 3-part Inventions (a counterpoint masterclass).

As far the the books you listed above, I only have the Persichetti book, which would be way too advanced for you (with all due respect). It's dense and assumes you have an extremely solid foundation of harmony and counterpoint, and even orchestration. Due to its subject (20th Century composing techniques and practices), it definitely stretches basic tonality and goes into chromaticism, extended chords, etc.. I'd assume the other books are pretty advanced as well, but I can't confirm that.
 
Hello Dr!
In order to take full advantages of these books i will recommend that first you learn how to read music, because those books utilizes a lot of examples that are in musical notation.

Also if you learn how to read music you can start transcribing the orchestral sheet music from your favourites soundtracks into daw midi, it will help a lot to solidify the concepts.

(about the books: also check harmony from walter piston and from rimsky korsakov too)
 
Hey guys @Xabierus Music @Beyond4A @R.G.
Thanks for your insight.

I don't read music YET* (I should have added "yet" because I am working on it).
But I didn't feel like not studying harmony and counterpoint until I become fluent at reading because ... that will be a long time and I'll get bored if I don't learn anything interesting about composition along the way
 
I know this isn't exactly what you're asking about re: book recommendations, but since the topic drifted to the necessity of reading music (and how much that did help me with all the stuff you're really asking about, orchestration, composition, etc.), I'll just mention what really helped me to become proficient in reading music. A website called Sight Reading Factory. (I'm not associated with them, except as a paying customer).

The best way, imho, to learn music notation is sightreading lots of examples to play. So the website starts at a very beginner level, and generates very simple, short examples for you to practice sight reading. You can customize exactly how 'beginner' you want to start. And it just keeps generating infinite examples. Limitless examples! As you get a bit better, you can set the examples to be slightly harder, and harder, and harder, as you progress. Eventually, you'll get very good at sightreading, and the world of orchestral scores will be opened to you.

Just a suggestion, for what it's worth.
 
Xabierus Music said:
Hello Dr!
In order to take full advantages of these books i will recommend that first you learn how to read music, because those books utilizes a lot of examples that are in musical notation.

Also if you learn how to read music you can start transcribing the orchestral sheet music from your favourites soundtracks into daw midi, it will help a lot to solidify the concepts.
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Started playing piano/taking lessons at eight years of age and continued until I was sixteen; therefore, Ben & Cristina Lamont gave me an outstanding foundation
However, as I started playing in bands, I didn't *have* to read much any more, and the "use it or lose it" syndrome finally took over--but when I had difficulty picking out a complicated part by ear, I'd go to the music store, take whatever sheet music off the rack, look at it for thirty seconds, and then be able to go home and learn it (thinking of the piano into to "Minute By Minute")

All that to say that even if you're not a great sight reader, simply having a basic facility in notation/note values/ time signatures will pay enormous dividends
 
Dr Bensmir said:
I don't read music YET* (I should have added "yet" because I am working on it).
But I didn't feel like not studying harmony and counterpoint until I become fluent at reading because ... that will be a long time and I'll get bored if I don't learn anything interesting about composition along the way
Click to expand...
But all of the books you have on your list use notated music extensively. Orchestration books use full score examples, often with transpositions.

I'm just trying to figure out how you are planning on using these books if you can't work with the examples? They are crucial for "hearing" how any specific topic actually sounds and I don't think it's really possible to learn all that material by guessing that.

EDIT: I don't mean to say you must be fluent in sight reading. But the ability to read notation at the level that lets you work through the actual examples (however slow that might be) is invaluable, in my opinion.
 
youngpokie said:
But all of the books you have on your list use notated music extensively. Orchestration books use full score examples, often with transpositions.

I'm just trying to figure out how you are planning on using these books if you can't work with the examples? They are crucial for "hearing" how any specific topic actually sounds and I don't think it's really possible to learn all that material by guessing that.
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Okay I know the teachers here are going to dissaprove but because I can still read very slowly, I was planning to transpose every exemple to MIDI on the fly. And if it's too complexe, use something like musescore or playscore that convert pdf to xml/midi with optical recognition

In your opinion, when should I start diving in orchestration/composition books ? What level of sight reading is considered necessary in order to make reading those books possible
 
Dr Bensmir said:
because I can still read very slowly, I was planning to transpose every exemple to MIDI on the fly
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That's quite workable, in my opinion, and depending on how quickly you can read music now might even be faster. I would urge you to then follow up by writing a couple of exercises that use that topic or technique, and by playing them with your own hands (to transfer it to muscle memory).
 
Dr Bensmir said:
I want to get better at orchestration, strings voicing, structuring my melodies, phrasing and counterpoint.
Click to expand...
Join the club !!!

I'd recommend a teacher if you can. My skill set has expanded exponentially since working with Dominic Sewell:

https://dominicsewell.co.uk/.

I'd also recommend expanding your source of knowledge from books to specialists:

Film Music Notes – Understanding the Art of Film Music

filmmusicnotes.com filmmusicnotes.com

Run by another teacher Mark Richards, this is a treasure trove of the more complex musical techniques as used by John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith and Others.

And there is Alain Mayrand and Scoreclub :

scoreclub.net

Home Page - ScoreClub

Golden-age level craft of composition for the modern-day composer. Real training that gets results to write like the masters.
scoreclub.net scoreclub.net

A fantastic resource.


But the bad news is you will HAVE to learn to read music.

best

ed
 
I would not use Rimsky Korsakov for orchestration any more. Players are far more agile and ranges are much wider than when he wrote it. It's a charming book and I've read it, but it's far too conservative for today. For the same reason, McKay's Creative Orchestration is not that helpful. More up-to-date than R-K but still rather old fashioned.

I suggest Samual Adler's book, The Study of Orchestration if it's in your language.

The other thing you can buy if you like books is a collection of scores from Omni Publishing. A few that are stellar:

"The Iron Giant" -- Michael Kamen
"Back to the Future" -- Alan Silvestri
"How to Train Your Dragon" -- John Powell

If you only had three books, I'd get these scores and study those. They are presented in concert pitch as well, so you won't have to transpose. As you are just getting comfortable with reading music, that might be a big help.

Also, I agree that Dominic Sewell knows a tremendous amount and would be a good teacher if you can get him. @ed buller -- great idea.

Good luck and have fun!

John
 
ed buller said:
Join the club !!!

I'd recommend a teacher if you can. My skill set has expanded exponentially since working with Dominic Sewell:

https://dominicsewell.co.uk/.

I'd also recommend expanding your source of knowledge from books to specialists:

Film Music Notes – Understanding the Art of Film Music

filmmusicnotes.com filmmusicnotes.com

Run by another teacher Mark Richards, this is a treasure trove of the more complex musical techniques as used by John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith and Others.

And there is Alain Mayrand and Scoreclub :

scoreclub.net

Home Page - ScoreClub

Golden-age level craft of composition for the modern-day composer. Real training that gets results to write like the masters.
scoreclub.net scoreclub.net

A fantastic resource.


But the bad news is you will HAVE to learn to read music.

best

ed
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Thanks for the ressources
at the moment I took the last course from Ryan Leach at Master the score. So far I am handling the music theory part okay

@JohnG Thanks for the suggestion ! It's obvious yet I didn't consider buying official scores. Whenever I wanted to study a score I went to Musescore to see transcriptions but you are right, I should buy official scores.
Since I am in Europe, the omnipublishing website redirected me to a german website https://www.schott-music.com/fr/how-to-train-your-dragon-no559754.html
Do you think it's the same thing ?
 
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