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Stupid questions for midi keyboard

Luna.L

New Member
hello,

I saw many people mentioned they have a 25 keys or 32 midi keyboards as the second one. I'm just debating if i should get it as my first one.
Those mini keyboards definitely takes less space so i don't have to buy a new desk.

here are some questions in my mind, and hopefully someone can share their experiences!

- When and how often do you feel limited by those keyboards with 32 or 25 keys?

- As someone with no piano background, what's the learning curve here for two hands playing?

- how many presets do you often use in midi keyboards?

- might be a bit off topic but any special reasons would lead you to use midi keyboard over mouse and keyboard or vice versa?
 
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my thoughts

- When and how often do you feel limited by those keyboards with 32 or 25 keys?
I opened my past projects (most of them just pop music) and start counting the keys needed there if i were using a midi keyboard. So far i think it would work for me in most cases if i want to do left hands and right hands separately. An exception would be for guitar, cuz it is already 2 octaves from 1st to 6th strings and it feels hard to separate left and right hands.

- how many presets do you often use in midi keyboards?
Did some research on different models and it seems some offers 5, some offers 8 or 10 presets slot that u can define. 5 seems to be a very small number to me lol.
 
I have a full 88, but I also use an NI M32 for my laptop rig. I'm a piano player (but not a trained pianist), but I'm Ok with smaller keyboards, but I discovered what works for me and what feels cramped.

25 is just too limiting IMO. 32 is better, but 37 really makes a difference, at least for me, to get additional left hand action even if it's just a bass note.

For mini keys, I strongly suggest the Arturia KeyStep 37. I owned it and miss it (sold it with others to get my 88). The build quality is superb.

For full size, the Novation LaunchKey 37 is a ton of controls for the money. Cheaper build than Arturia, but you get pads and transport controls galore.

One other thought: if you ponder on full size keys and are thinking about a 49, that's where I get cramped again. If I'm going to play full size more piano-like, 61 is better to spread out (octaves in the bass, etc).

This is all subjective of course, just my take. Happy hunting!
 
Sanjay’s done reviews of his Top 6 new MIDI keyboards for 2023 which includes minis.

I have an IK 25 note which I find tricky to play, also an Arturia MiniLab II, 25 note, which is better and is okay for auditioning sounds and for playing phrases and chords, also have a GarageKey 37 note which is definitely useable. Ultimately though it’s a M-Audio 88 note that’s my day to day keyboard.
 
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Use Komplete Kontrol S49 Mk1 routinely for MIDI Controller needs. Works well for majority of DAW, and hardware polysynth situations.

Also have Axiom Pro 61 for longer time; very pleased with sliders, knobs, pads, in addition to keys.

Trusted Roland KR-577 always there for pianist needs, yet used infrequently.

Your available space drives choice, but quality 49 (full-size) keys can be quite effective. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Good luck !
 
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Hey there,

First, you question is not stupid. You only learn if you ask questions and the only bad question is the one that you don't ask. I've asked elementary questions of some of the people here and they have been kind enough to give me a meaningful answer and pointed me in the right direction, even if it was elementary to them.

To you (good) question, I am about to give you an answer that I hate to hear, so I hate to give it, but it is kind of true: it really depends on what you want to do.

I am a pianist and would not always be happy if I had fewer than 88-keys that since I often play piano for piano music. But that what the piano is for, and I also have a digital piano that I thought that I would start using for other composition, but I have not really that much. Instead, I have an old 76 key synthesizer that I use as a midi controller because it has modulation and pitch bending capacities (like the mod wheels on many newer controllers). I actually like that spongier response in the keys for playing turns and ostinati with orchestral VIs. So I would (and do) feel limited by smaller keyboards if I wanted to play the piano as a piano, but I am grateful to have the luxury of being able to do that elsewhere and I can use the digital piano to generate my midi if I really want a close to piano feel. If the feel of the key bed (weighted action like a piano) and need for 88-keys to play piano music, then you might be better with a smaller, less expensive keyboard to act as your controller. By the way, there is a steep learning curve to being proficient at two handed playing and many will tell you that you should be very proficient in at least one instrument. That is the best, but you can have a lot of fun and make great music without being proficient at two handed piano. Indeed many people here play other instruments and are self-described ham-fisted pianists and yet make very high quality professional music that is the envy of many, including me.

Where you will be otherwise limited with a shorter keyboard happens in a couple of ways. First, the range of some instruments may be wide than your instrument of interest. You mentioned the guitar. If you have an acoustic guitar VI, for example, you will need about 4 octaves to play the full range of the instrument. My first question is whether you need the "full range" to be able to play what you wanted to play. The answer is "not always." The fortepiano (or pianoforte) in Mozart's era typically had 49 to 52 keys and this expanded to 66-80 keys. So even then, you did not have all 88 keys and that Mozart guy could write some nice tunes despite that technological limitation. Second, if you are a jazz musician, sometimes your main job is to play an accompaniment and you are playing "in the pocket," or in a middle range in the keyboard not at all using the highest and lowest notes. Solos are a different story. And to some extent this holds true for the guitar. There are workarounds for this - most DAWs, VIs, and many keyboards have ways to quickly shift to a different octave using some sort of midi modifying strategy (you play a note and it plays an octave higher or lower). This is perfectly fine if you have to play a high part that does not require a low part at the same time (or vice versa). When you have to switch back and forth, that can be annoying, but you may not have to do that too much if you are going to play parts in separately.

The other limitation is that even if you have the range of the instrument, you may not have enough keys to access the key switches (keys that do not play notes but instead allow you to access different articulations of an instrument - e.g. switching between a long note on a violin and a staccato note, as you would see in many different musical styles). So if you had a guitar VI and a 48 key keyboard (so you had the full range of the VI), you might not have keys to switch between a regular picked string, a palm mute, or some other articulation). But there are workarounds for this too. Many of these controllers have switches and settings that you can map to those key switches so instead needing a key, you use a button or something to switch articulations. While this takes two hands, you are rarely going to need to play two handed violin parts while switching articulations and you can just use your left hand to change the articulation (via a button or a key switch). And this assumes that you are playing all of this into the DAW in real time, but from your post I don't know that this will be the case. And even as a pianist, I often take a couple of passes for instruments other than keyboard instruments (I'll play a violin line in, get all the notes correct, but still have to go back and make a cleaner articulation change or clean up my modulation wheel playing because, well, that is not a piano skill that I learned).

I think that I am in the camp with @CharlieCee, @PaulieDC, and @sostenuto on this - a 61 key keyboard would probably be okay for what I do at the computer without feeling too cramped. And my caveat is that I personally can't use smaller than standard sized keys because I have so much muscle memory in the distance between notes. But honestly, that only matters if I am playing a difficult passage and for writing a slow clarinet passage or something, smaller keys would be fine for me. But the standard sized ones are my preference. If you want to eventually learn to seriously play the piano (not just use the instrument as a means to get a composition into a computer), I would strongly advise getting standard sized keys.

Finally, I think that we are all operating under the assumption that you want to use a midi keyboard acting as a controller - that is, to interface with a computer where your sounds live (though for years I used midi keyboards before computer interfaces were really a thing). If I am correct in that assumption, then you don't really need presets on your midi keyboard controller. I use none. In your computer, your DAW will have mechanisms for you to save your presets so you don't have to have this function in your keyboard (when it functions as a controller). When it functions as a synthesizer or sampler (in other words it not only uses the midi data generated by your playing, but uses that midi data to trigger sounds that are made within your keyboard), well then you would need presets.

Incidentally, those pads on those controllers that @PaulieDC and @sostenuto mentioned are a lot of fun. Some of them are nicely responsive and can be great for putting down a beat. But you can also do that finger drumming on a keyboard. In fact, even after using my son's Ableton Push pads (which were a lot of fun with all the mesmerizing lights), it was just easier for me to use the keyboard. And for that, I'd definitely NOT want to use weighted keys....just sayin'

So hopefully the explanation to the answer "it depends what you want to do" came with some clarity.

Good luck!
 
I have a full 88, but I also use an NI M32 for my laptop rig. I'm a piano player (but not a trained pianist), but I'm Ok with smaller keyboards, but I discovered what works for me and what feels cramped.

25 is just too limiting IMO. 32 is better, but 37 really makes a difference, at least for me, to get additional left hand action even if it's just a bass note.

For mini keys, I strongly suggest the Arturia KeyStep 37. I owned it and miss it (sold it with others to get my 88). The build quality is superb.

For full size, the Novation LaunchKey 37 is a ton of controls for the money. Cheaper build than Arturia, but you get pads and transport controls galore.

One other thought: if you ponder on full size keys and are thinking about a 49, that's where I get cramped again. If I'm going to play full size more piano-like, 61 is better to spread out (octaves in the bass, etc).

This is all subjective of course, just my take. Happy hunting!
Thanks for sharing! It is very useful info for me.

I also reads lots of good things about Arturia. Arturia doesn't have a real wheel though, instead they have touch strip. seems like wheels are better but how much better? Did u feel much a difference there?

Akai also has a 37 keys mini keyboard now with wheels and pads. (i dont really like their presets editor GUI lol.
 
Sanjay’s done reviews of his Top 6 new MIDI keyboards for 2023 which includes minis.

I have an IK 25 note which I find tricky to play, also an Arturia MiniLab II, 25 note, which is better and is okay for auditioning sounds and for playing phrases and chords, also have a GarageKey 37 note which is definitely useable. Ultimately though it’s a M-Audio 88 note that’s my day to day keyboard.
Ahhhhh yes Sanjay's video are really helpful. I remember him saying the extra keys matter. (and probably that's why 37 normally more pricy than 25 keys)
 
Hey there,

First, you question is not stupid. You only learn if you ask questions and the only bad question is the one that you don't ask. I've asked elementary questions of some of the people here and they have been kind enough to give me a meaningful answer and pointed me in the right direction, even if it was elementary to them.

To you (good) question, I am about to give you an answer that I hate to hear, so I hate to give it, but it is kind of true: it really depends on what you want to do.

I am a pianist and would not always be happy if I had fewer than 88-keys that since I often play piano for piano music. But that what the piano is for, and I also have a digital piano that I thought that I would start using for other composition, but I have not really that much. Instead, I have an old 76 key synthesizer that I use as a midi controller because it has modulation and pitch bending capacities (like the mod wheels on many newer controllers). I actually like that spongier response in the keys for playing turns and ostinati with orchestral VIs. So I would (and do) feel limited by smaller keyboards if I wanted to play the piano as a piano, but I am grateful to have the luxury of being able to do that elsewhere and I can use the digital piano to generate my midi if I really want a close to piano feel. If the feel of the key bed (weighted action like a piano) and need for 88-keys to play piano music, then you might be better with a smaller, less expensive keyboard to act as your controller. By the way, there is a steep learning curve to being proficient at two handed playing and many will tell you that you should be very proficient in at least one instrument. That is the best, but you can have a lot of fun and make great music without being proficient at two handed piano. Indeed many people here play other instruments and are self-described ham-fisted pianists and yet make very high quality professional music that is the envy of many, including me.

Where you will be otherwise limited with a shorter keyboard happens in a couple of ways. First, the range of some instruments may be wide than your instrument of interest. You mentioned the guitar. If you have an acoustic guitar VI, for example, you will need about 4 octaves to play the full range of the instrument. My first question is whether you need the "full range" to be able to play what you wanted to play. The answer is "not always." The fortepiano (or pianoforte) in Mozart's era typically had 49 to 52 keys and this expanded to 66-80 keys. So even then, you did not have all 88 keys and that Mozart guy could write some nice tunes despite that technological limitation. Second, if you are a jazz musician, sometimes your main job is to play an accompaniment and you are playing "in the pocket," or in a middle range in the keyboard not at all using the highest and lowest notes. Solos are a different story. And to some extent this holds true for the guitar. There are workarounds for this - most DAWs, VIs, and many keyboards have ways to quickly shift to a different octave using some sort of midi modifying strategy (you play a note and it plays an octave higher or lower). This is perfectly fine if you have to play a high part that does not require a low part at the same time (or vice versa). When you have to switch back and forth, that can be annoying, but you may not have to do that too much if you are going to play parts in separately.

The other limitation is that even if you have the range of the instrument, you may not have enough keys to access the key switches (keys that do not play notes but instead allow you to access different articulations of an instrument - e.g. switching between a long note on a violin and a staccato note, as you would see in many different musical styles). So if you had a guitar VI and a 48 key keyboard (so you had the full range of the VI), you might not have keys to switch between a regular picked string, a palm mute, or some other articulation). But there are workarounds for this too. Many of these controllers have switches and settings that you can map to those key switches so instead needing a key, you use a button or something to switch articulations. While this takes two hands, you are rarely going to need to play two handed violin parts while switching articulations and you can just use your left hand to change the articulation (via a button or a key switch). And this assumes that you are playing all of this into the DAW in real time, but from your post I don't know that this will be the case. And even as a pianist, I often take a couple of passes for instruments other than keyboard instruments (I'll play a violin line in, get all the notes correct, but still have to go back and make a cleaner articulation change or clean up my modulation wheel playing because, well, that is not a piano skill that I learned).

I think that I am in the camp with @CharlieCee, @PaulieDC, and @sostenuto on this - a 61 key keyboard would probably be okay for what I do at the computer without feeling too cramped. And my caveat is that I personally can't use smaller than standard sized keys because I have so much muscle memory in the distance between notes. But honestly, that only matters if I am playing a difficult passage and for writing a slow clarinet passage or something, smaller keys would be fine for me. But the standard sized ones are my preference. If you want to eventually learn to seriously play the piano (not just use the instrument as a means to get a composition into a computer), I would strongly advise getting standard sized keys.

Finally, I think that we are all operating under the assumption that you want to use a midi keyboard acting as a controller - that is, to interface with a computer where your sounds live (though for years I used midi keyboards before computer interfaces were really a thing). If I am correct in that assumption, then you don't really need presets on your midi keyboard controller. I use none. In your computer, your DAW will have mechanisms for you to save your presets so you don't have to have this function in your keyboard (when it functions as a controller). When it functions as a synthesizer or sampler (in other words it not only uses the midi data generated by your playing, but uses that midi data to trigger sounds that are made within your keyboard), well then you would need presets.

Incidentally, those pads on those controllers that @PaulieDC and @sostenuto mentioned are a lot of fun. Some of them are nicely responsive and can be great for putting down a beat. But you can also do that finger drumming on a keyboard. In fact, even after using my son's Ableton Push pads (which were a lot of fun with all the mesmerizing lights), it was just easier for me to use the keyboard. And for that, I'd definitely NOT want to use weighted keys....just sayin'

So hopefully the explanation to the answer "it depends what you want to do" came with some clarity.

Good luck!
hey Pete, really appreciate your replies!! When i write down my questions i never expect anyone to spend time to write such a long post to help. really make my heart feel warm.

I have another stupidly good question for this workflow you mentioned here:
And even as a pianist, I often take a couple of passes for instruments other than keyboard instruments (I'll play a violin line in, get all the notes correct, but still have to go back and make a cleaner articulation change or clean up my modulation wheel playing because, well, that is not a piano skill that I learned).
when I was learning on youtube university, feels people just cut out the process of how they get to correct their inputs using midi controller. So i always feel like maybe i would do the initial input using the midi keyboard and then correct them by mouse. Is that what happens often or it is more natural to just redo, or correct using midi keyboard?
 
How you like to compose can be a relevant factor in choosing the size of the keyboard. I'm a proficient piano player, but when composing, I tend to either write notes into the MIDI editor or just play isolated lines on the keyboard. Never have I needed to employ both hands and use the full range of the keyboard. But that's just me.

I used 49 keys for many years, and then switched to 61 keys. 49 was workable, but felt a little limiting at times. 61 works really well for me. Of course, I would happily welcome 88 keys, but I simply don't have the space for it.
 
when I was learning on youtube university, feels people just cut out the process of how they get to correct their inputs using midi controller. So i always feel like maybe i would do the initial input using the midi keyboard and then correct them by mouse. Is that what happens often or it is more natural to just redo, or correct using midi keyboard?
I think that different people have different preferences and the same person can have a different preference depending on the situation. For example, if I am playing a piano part and I make a mistake, I will play it in again because I know I can do better. If I am playing in a violin legato line and the notes are correct but my mod wheel skills are not good enough, I may draw in the cc curves after the fact. If I am finger drumming and my timing is off, I may gently quantize some things or add/subtract hits or adjust the velocity of some of the hits with my mouse. Some people, like @NekujaK, will write notes into the MIDI editor (I do this too sometimes).

For me, playing piano lines in is always more natural - I don't have key switches and that pedal has been a part of the instrument for centuries. If I have a good take with a few minor errors, I will clean that up in the midi editor. But a cello part? Well, playing the melody in is fairly natural to me, but using key switches or whatever to change articulations on the fly in real time while concurrently using the mod wheel to sculpt dynamics is not at all natural for me. So I will take a hybrid approach with that, usually playing the melody in, and adjusting articulations and dynamics after the fact. But given all of those "after the fact" adjustments, it is also easy to just use the midi editor once you get proficient with that. Ultimately I want the most natural sounding result, but sometimes I need to use methods that are less natural than that (to me) in order to achieve that. You have to try and see what works for you.
 
I am a trained pianist and have played for over 50 years. I also have owned a ton of different synths ranging from a small Yamaha CS5 to an 88 key Phantom. But I always used full size keys, thinking it would be hard to move back and forth. However, I now have a couple of midi controllers with mini keys and its not such a big deal. I obviously don't play intricate piano pieces on the mini keys, but the smaller keys have one advantage I never thought of before owning one. I can play some pretty awesome open voiced chords with big leaps that I can't on full sized keys. Just the other day, I played a chord that I thought I was playing an octave in the left hand, but I was stretched farther and hit some frankenchord that just hit differently than I was expecting. Happy accident that took me in a different (but great) direction.
 
From time to time, I use a Novation Mininova when traveling or composing, which is 37 keys. They're smaller than I feel comfortable with, and it's mostly just a "when I need to" sort of scenario.

I use a 61-key Arturia keyboard for the majority of my work, and if I feel so inclined, I also have a Yamaha Motif XS8 88-key on the other side of my office that I sometimes use. 61 keys is usually perfect/sufficient for my needs.

I think you might find the 25 or 37 keys limiting, but if you aren't playing across multiple octaves on one instrument track -- you can always drop the octave range and merge record. I'd find that annoying as a slow-down for my own purposes.
 
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