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New rules for signatures - Especially for people "selling" something

Mike Greene

Senior Member
Moderator
A few people (mostly people selling courses) have been pushing the boundaries of signatures recently, with signatures that are essentially ad copy, often four lines or more, with attention-getting multicolor text and links, sometimes with emojis. What's worse, these same people tend to also post a lot, apparently in a cynical realization that the more they post, the more their blurb for their courses will be seen.

That's bad enough, and I probably should have made some new rules sooner, but then we got a report yesterday of a guy who had a 600x300 png in his signature, which was an ad for his MIDI packs. Full color and everything, including a coupon code for us lucky VI-Control members.

This is not what signatures are supposed to be about. They're supposed to be "Here's who I am," or "Here's a fun quip" or some other thing that's interesting for the membership in general. They're not supposed to be guerrilla marketing opportunities.

Many of us do have businesses, of course, so a simple link for that is cool, since it's nice to know who's associated with which companies. You can even include a few words describing this company or channel or product, but please refrain from sales pitches.

For anything commercial, don't use colors, bold, italics, larger fonts, or emojis. (That should maybe apply to regular members, too, but for those people, let's just say, "Please be tasteful.")

Also (for commercial operations), if it's more than one or two lines, there should be a good reason, like you have legitimately different companies. Not just three or four different ways to access your courses or product.

Note that these are mostly intended for people with commercial ventures (including selling in the Classifieds), so for regular members, don't stress out over your own signature. Also, long term members (even commercial ones) have much more leeway. I don't want to take the fun out of signatures, I just want to calm the marketing down.

As always, I'm open to other thoughts on this.
 
So, how many lines of signature are allowed? and which links?
Basically one line for each site. So you would have one line (short, no bold, no colors) for your commercial site, then if you have a YouTube channel, one line for that is fine, too.

Bear in mind that the point of all this is we're seeing a lot of quasi-spam lately. (I say "quasi-spam" because it's coming from legitimate people, but the posts are often with ulterior motives.)

For example, let's suppose someone who is selling composition/orchestration lessons posted five compositions in the Members Compositions section last month. (I won't name names. ;) ) First, five is a lot. A whole lot! Second, that section is intended for sincere people looking for advice on how to make their pieces better. Or the *occasional* piece from someone with a lot of experience and skill.

So for a suspicious guy like me, it's hard to not think these postings are really just ads. "Hey, check out these pieces! Want to make music like this? Then click the links in my signature!"

I'm not saying that is the intent, but ... well, I don't think it's just me with these suspicions. Especially when, in that same month, that same person also started multiple threads in the Composition, Orchestration & Technique subsections, and I think one or two in the Workflows and DIY section as well.

I'm not trying to single you out, mind you, since there are a number of other people doing variations of this lately. People selling courses tend to be the most aggressive, but in the last few days, I also had to put a developer on a posting "diet," because he posts too many sales. Guerrilla marketing isn't what the forum is supposed to be about.

So although this thread is specifically about signatures, it's important to understand that the spirit of this "rule" extends beyond just signatures. The forum has grown in the last few years to the point of being overcrowded, where many people's topics don't get the attention they deserve, simply because they're crowded out by so much noise.
 
Would it make things better/fairer overall if sigs were allowed no html except for text and links? Huge text and weird colours in sigs is always annoying.
I'm reluctant to take things that far, or even be too specific with rules. Andrew K (before Audiobro) used to have a graphic with a bug crawling around, which was pretty cool and everybody seemed to like it. I wouldn't want to outlaw that. Not that I'd want to encourage it, either, since it could easily get out of control as the less tasteful people make their attempts at cleverness. But I think we're better off just doing things case by case.
 
I'm reluctant to take things that far, or even be too specific with rules. Andrew K (before Audiobro) used to have a graphic with a bug crawling around, which was pretty cool and everybody seemed to like it. I wouldn't want to outlaw that. Not that I'd want to encourage it, either, since it could easily get out of control as the less tasteful people make their attempts at cleverness. But I think we're better off just doing things case by case.
Ah the memories,I actually whacked my monitor a few times seeing that damn fly!

drummers jokes welcome
 
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The forum has grown in the last few years to the point of being overcrowded, where many people's topics don't get the attention they deserve, simply because they're crowded out by so much noise.
If you are serious about wanting to give people who post the good and interesting threads the attention those threads deserve, it would not be a bad idea to change the way Latest Posts works.

Here are some ideas for inspiration:

- Threads posted in Members’ Composition and that Composition-subforum are always shown first in Latest Posts

- Commercial threads in Deals etc. subforums no longer appear on Latest Posts unless the user actively has turned this on somewhere in Settings
 
If you are serious about wanting to give people who post the good and interesting threads the attention those threads deserve, it would not be a bad idea to change the way Latest Posts works.

Here are some ideas for inspiration:

- Threads posted in Members’ Composition and that Composition-subforum are always shown first in Latest Posts

- Commercial threads in Deals etc. subforums no longer appear on Latest Posts unless the user actively has turned this on somewhere in Settings
Or I could just ask the annoying people to not be so annoying. I'll stick with that for now. ;)
 
Or I could just ask the annoying people to not be so annoying. I'll stick with that for now. ;)
There’s been an increase in the number of smaller developers in recent years which means we’re seeing more posts with deals and product introductions than ever before.

It’s taking focus away from the regular threads.

I’m not saying those posts shouldn’t be on the forum but one can ask if they’ve started to take up too much “space”.
 
Just thought of this:

We could have Latest Deals as a new menu item right after Latest Posts, like this:

Latest Posts. Latest Deals. Watched Forums. Watched Threads. Mark forums read. (…and so on…)

That way Latest Posts would not show commercial threads; it would show the “real” used threads which would then easier get the attention they deserve, as you said. But when people want to see latest deals, it’s literally right next to Latest Posts in the menu.

That would be an easy change, also for us users :)
 
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Just thought of this:

We could have Latest Deals as a new menu item right after Latest Posts, like this:

Latest Posts. Latest Deals. Watched Forums. Watched Threads. Mark forums read. (…and so on…)

That way Latest Posts would not show commercial threads; it would show the “real” used threads which would then easier get the attention they deserve, as you said. But when people want to see latest deals, it’s literally right next to Latest Posts in the menu.

That would be an easy change, also for us users :)
Ifff Mike were open to ideas being kicked around... Then a dashboard preference for what the user prefers to see 1st would probably make the most sense...
(Probably 10 times more complicated to implement than it sounds)...
 
I'm feeling some general fatigue from the constant barrage of new music related products. Youtube is starting to feel like teleshopping channels and everything is either sponsored product reviews, marketing funnels towards courses/patreon, or aimed at playing the youtube game with content that doesn't interest me much.

So if Mike finds ways to dial that ceaseless marketing back a little on VI:C, I'm all for it! And in general I think the whole community could do with a little less compulsive spending on products and a little more actually writing music. I'm no exception!
 
There are still some annoyances I'm addressing (I also sent notices/warnings to 7 or 8 companies that post way too many "Deals"), but overall, I don't think the situation is that bad.

Below is the Latest Posts feed as of this minute. Of the first 20 threads, only 2 are Deals or Commercial Announcements threads (VSL and Osterhouse). Then two other threads are quasi-commercial, since they're contests, although winning something from OT or VSL is actually pretty cool. Even if you do count those, it's still only 4.

So overall, I don't think things are bad enough yet to warrant changing how the Latest Post feed works, since I imagine most people *want* to know when there's a new release from Spitfire/VSL/OT/CS/AudioBro, etc.

What's called for here is a scalpel, not a hatchet. ;)

Screen Shot 2023-07-01 at 5.28.15 PM.png
 
Thanks for taking a measured approach. It's a balancing act for sure and there's not gonna be any perfect solutions. But I think how you are going about it is admirable.

At the end of the day the devs are as much a part of what makes this place great too, and pretending we can excise them from our experience is silly. Yet at the same time increasing the SNR (signal to noise ratio) is commendable.
 
Basically one line for each site. So you would have one line (short, no bold, no colors) for your commercial site, then if you have a YouTube channel, one line for that is fine, too.

Bear in mind that the point of all this is we're seeing a lot of quasi-spam lately. (I say "quasi-spam" because it's coming from legitimate people, but the posts are often with ulterior motives.)

For example, let's suppose someone who is selling composition/orchestration lessons posted five compositions in the Members Compositions section last month. (I won't name names. ;) ) First, five is a lot. A whole lot! Second, that section is intended for sincere people looking for advice on how to make their pieces be
I'm feeling some general fatigue from the constant barrage of new music related products. Youtube is starting to feel like teleshopping channels and everything is either sponsored product reviews, marketing funnels towards courses/patreon, or aimed at playing the youtube game with content that doesn't interest me much.

So if Mike finds ways to dial that ceaseless marketing back a little on VI:C, I'm all for it! And in general I think the whole community could do with a little less compulsive spending on products and a little more actually writing music. I'm no exception!
Basically one line for each site. So you would have one line (short, no bold, no colors) for your commercial site, then if you have a YouTube channel, one line for that is fine, too.

Bear in mind that the point of all this is we're seeing a lot of quasi-spam lately. (I say "quasi-spam" because it's coming from legitimate people, but the posts are often with ulterior motives.)

For example, let's suppose someone who is selling composition/orchestration lessons posted five compositions in the Members Compositions section last month. (I won't name names. ;) ) First, five is a lot. A whole lot! Second, that section is intended for sincere people looking for advice on how to make their pieces better. Or the *occasional* piece from someone with a lot of experience and skill.

So for a suspicious guy like me, it's hard to not think these postings are really just ads. "Hey, check out these pieces! Want to make music like this? Then click the links in my signature!"

I'm not saying that is the intent, but ... well, I don't think it's just me with these suspicions. Especially when, in that same month, that same person also started multiple threads in the Composition, Orchestration & Technique subsections, and I think one or two in the Workflows and DIY section as well.

I'm not trying to single you out, mind you, since there are a number of other people doing variations of this lately. People selling courses tend to be the most aggressive, but in the last few days, I also had to put a developer on a posting "diet," because he posts too many sales. Guerrilla marketing isn't what the forum is supposed to be about.

So although this thread is specifically about signatures, it's important to understand that the spirit of this "rule" extends beyond just signatures. The forum has grown in the last few years to the point of being overcrowded, where many people's topics don't get the attention they deserve, simply because they're crowded out by so much noise.


So for a suspicious guy like me, it's hard to not think these postings are really just ads. "Hey, check out these pieces! Want to make music like this? Then click the links in my signature!"

I'm not saying that is the intent, but ... well, I don't think it's just me with these suspicions. Especially when, in that same month, that same person also started multiple threads in the Composition, Orchestration & Technique subsections, and I think one or two in the Workflows and DIY section as well.

I'm not trying to single you out, mind you, since there are a number of other people doing variations of this lately. People selling courses tend to be the most aggressive, but in the last few days, I also had to put a developer on a posting "diet," because he posts too many sales. Guerrilla marketing isn't what the forum is supposed to be about.

So although this thread is specifically about signatures, it's important to understand that the spirit of this "rule" extends beyond just signatures. The forum has grown in the last few years to the point of being overcrowded, where many people's topics don't get the attention they deserve, simply because they're crowded out by so much noise.
I had 3 links on my signature: the hire button, example of me teaching the things many of you guys don´t stop to ask about, and a link to promote the mockup music of anyone here on my radio program . This matches one line for each site ; or better: it could have layed out differently, if you asked me. I have vision problem and need more espace, i dont like clutter. Anyways. This got deleted, according to new rules. Later i change for one single link. Like you have, and others here. It got deleted again without notification or message. It is like giving you shoes to enter my home, and i take the shoes when i want, with no explanation. So, regardless of this being justified as a community rule or not, it was not pleasant for me as well, and more than just annoying, because i have to spend some time on this now, to understand.

Since now you gave the new site rules the question for me is: if i put my one line signature again, will it be deleted again or not?
 
I'm feeling some general fatigue from the constant barrage of new music related products. Youtube is starting to feel like teleshopping channels and everything is either sponsored product reviews, marketing funnels towards courses/patreon, or aimed at playing the youtube game with content that doesn't interest me much.

So if Mike finds ways to dial that ceaseless marketing back a little on VI:C, I'm all for it! And in general I think the whole community could do with a little less compulsive spending on products and a little more actually writing music. I'm no exception!
Well, from the other end of the perspective as a developer, I got started on this forum, and I couldn't make a living without it. So there's that to take into consideration too...
 
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