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Four Things Dorico Can't Do (That Sibelius Can)

ThomasS

ThomasS

Active Member
Four Things Dorico Can’t Do (That Sibelius Can)
Dorico has a 30% discount price at the moment, so after reading so many great things, I tried a demo in the hopes of switching this month.

I can’t tell you how disappointed I am. Disappointed, not because the program is bad. Far from it. It’s better than Sibelius in a ton of ways. But frustrated that a program so great is still missing deal-breaking features that Sibelius has had for years.

1- It does not playback pauses. Fermatas, breath-marks, and other short silent gaps are essential in a lot of music (particularly accapella choral) and Sibelius has been doing this for years. You can add them to the printout of Dorico, but they don’t affect playback, as they do in Sibelius (which also lets you custom design their behavior, and add your own additional custom articulations)
2 - Dorico midi export does not include lyrics readable by other programs, whereas Sibelius does. This is absolutely essential for me, as I’ve recently taken to using Synthesizer V, which everyone will likely be doing in the coming years. (Listen to audio examples below of Sibelius midi files played by Synthesizer V.)
3 - Dorico does not have video output (of the playback with cursor following the music) whereas Sibelius does. Perhaps this is not such a big deal, as it can be achieved with third party screen recording programs, but I wonder why Dorico can’t include this.
4 - Sibelius has dozens of user-written plugins (using the manuscript language) for which there is no equivalent Dorico feature, nor can I find an equivalent of Sibelius’s Manuscript Language to write them yourself.

As an example, here are four accapella scores I recently made in Sibelius, and played the Sibelius output in Synthesizer V.
View attachment Synth V Choir - A Nightengale Sang in Berkely Square.mp3
Synth-V Choir - A Nightingale Sang in Berkely Square

View attachment Synth-V Singers - Somewhere Over the Rainbow.mp3
Synth-V Choir - Somewhere Over the Rainbow

View attachment Synth-V Choir - Their Hearts Were Full of Spring.mp3
Synth-V Choir - Their Hearts Were Full of Spring

View attachment Synth-V Choir - Early One Morning.mp3
Synth-V Choir - Early One Morning

You can hear lots of rubato, and particularly listen for pauses – little gaps of silence between words and phrases. These were all played by Sibelius. There was no DAW used to prepare the performance. Sibelius can enter tempo changes at the push of a key, and pauses of any duration (programmable) and playback rall, rit, and other things as well. The entire rubato feel was handled by Sibelius. Dorico can only make tempo variations (sometimes needing to go in and out of Play/Write mode) but not pauses, which are essential to this kind of music.

Furthermore, the examples here have lyrics, sung correctly on each note or melisma, and this too was generated by Sibelius. The midi file generated by Sibelius includes all the lyrics assigned to each note. You need to tweak the pronunciation inside Synthesizer V for some words, but it is 80-90% ready for you. Dorico, for some reason, does not include lyrics in it’s midi file (at least not readable by Synthesizer V) so you would have to re-enter them which would literally take hours.

I could not have made the examples above without Sibelius. I used Sibelius shortcuts and custom articulations and tempo changes to get the rubato feel, and the lyrics were exported with the notes. In some cases I used custom text search/replace routines (in Microsoft Word) to quickly alter the lyrics to a form that Synthesizer V needs, and this is easily done in Sibelius, just exporting all the lyrics as a single text file.

There is no program that can convincingly sing choral music as well (and intelligible) as Synthesizer V. Hollywood Choirs and other worldbuilder choral libraries are hard to understand, and take hours of time, whereas it takes a fraction of time in Synthesizer V, and the results are remarkable. If you are not familiar with it, you may be surprised to learn that the above examples are all AI (artificial intelligengence) generated by a computer. At the moment, it is limited in the size of choirs it can emulate, but in the near future, with the addition of more English voices, this will certainly become the go-to plugin for composers who want to mock up their choral arrangements.

Dorico needs to improve its ability to work with Synthesizer V if it wants to keep up with the times. There are other things about this, but I have said enough. So, for the moment, at least, I am going to stick with Sibelius, but keep an eye on Dorico (Version 5 maybe?)
Click to read more...
 
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About your #1: there is a tempo track in Dorico as well as a separate key editor which you can easily use to program in fermatas and gaps. So while they don't play back automatically, you have easy access and full control over the performance in this regard.
 
Robin said:
About your #1: there is a tempo track in Dorico as well as a separate key editor which you can easily use to program in fermatas and gaps. So while they don't play back automatically, you have easy access and full control over the performance in this regard.
Click to expand...
Yes, thank you Robin, I know, that is the only work-around for Dorico at the moment, but what a cumbersome and slow way to do what Sibelius does in a single keystroke. I have six different fermatas, all assigned to a single key. Some prolong the note a bit, and leave a small gap, others have longer gaps or prolongation. I know them all by heart, hit a note and a single key and, without affecting the printed score, my playback is quite human sounding, together with tempo variation, accel, rall, rit, etc. I do it all while in write mode, but this work-around would require switching back and forth between the two modes. I might as well just export the midi to a DAW and edit it there, which is even more capable. So you say Dorico "can easily program fermatas" - I would say perhaps easy, but certainly not nearly as fast. In any case the Dorico manual says they plan to have fermata playback in future updates, and if that were not a lot easier than using the key editor why would they bother? They obviously recognize this as a limitation, since it is scheduled for an update. I will buy the program when it can do this, but it also needs to embed lyrics into a midi file. Its a great program, but still too limited for my use.
 
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Of course they have acknowledged that this needs to be improved, along with many other things. But as with every software development you have to assign your available work force wisely to bring the program forward and it seems like there were more important things to deal with so far.

I know it can be frustrating if a software hasn't full support for what you specifically need. There are users from all sort of groups longing for extended features in Dorico. The contemporary classical composers ask for more advanced notation in their field, the film composers ask for specific tools and functionalities in their field etc. etc. I for instance don't need a fermata playback so your feature request is irrelevant for me but I would probably like to see something in the software that I deem absolutely essential which you never need.

You can be assured that @Daniel S. and the team around him are very well aware about the shortcomings of Dorico and they will eventually tackle them. It's just a matter of prioritizing.
 
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ThomasS said:
Four Things Dorico Can’t Do (That Sibelius Can)
Dorico has a 30% discount price at the moment, so after reading so many great things, I tried a demo in the hopes of switching this month.

I can’t tell you how disappointed I am. Disappointed, not because the program is bad. Far from it. It’s better than Sibelius in a ton of ways. But frustrated that a program so great is still missing deal-breaking features that Sibelius has had for years.

1- It does not playback pauses. Fermatas, breath-marks, and other short silent gaps are essential in a lot of music (particularly accapella choral) and Sibelius has been doing this for years. You can add them to the printout of Dorico, but they don’t affect playback, as they do in Sibelius (which also lets you custom design their behavior, and add your own additional custom articulations)
2 - Dorico midi export does not include lyrics readable by other programs, whereas Sibelius does. This is absolutely essential for me, as I’ve recently taken to using Synthesizer V, which everyone will likely be doing in the coming years. (Listen to audio examples below of Sibelius midi files played by Synthesizer V.)
3 - Dorico does not have video output (of the playback with cursor following the music) whereas Sibelius does. Perhaps this is not such a big deal, as it can be achieved with third party screen recording programs, but I wonder why Dorico can’t include this.
4 - Sibelius has dozens of user-written plugins (using the manuscript language) for which there is no equivalent Dorico feature, nor can I find an equivalent of Sibelius’s Manuscript Language to write them yourself.

As an example, here are four accapella scores I recently made in Sibelius, and played the Sibelius output in Synthesizer V.
View attachment Synth V Choir - A Nightengale Sang in Berkely Square.mp3
Synth-V Choir - A Nightingale Sang in Berkely Square

View attachment Synth-V Singers - Somewhere Over the Rainbow.mp3
Synth-V Choir - Somewhere Over the Rainbow

View attachment Synth-V Choir - Their Hearts Were Full of Spring.mp3
Synth-V Choir - Their Hearts Were Full of Spring

View attachment Synth-V Choir - Early One Morning.mp3
Synth-V Choir - Early One Morning

You can hear lots of rubato, and particularly listen for pauses – little gaps of silence between words and phrases. These were all played by Sibelius. There was no DAW used to prepare the performance. Sibelius can enter tempo changes at the push of a key, and pauses of any duration (programmable) and playback rall, rit, and other things as well. The entire rubato feel was handled by Sibelius. Dorico can only make tempo variations (sometimes needing to go in and out of Play/Write mode) but not pauses, which are essential to this kind of music.

Furthermore, the examples here have lyrics, sung correctly on each note or melisma, and this too was generated by Sibelius. The midi file generated by Sibelius includes all the lyrics assigned to each note. You need to tweak the pronunciation inside Synthesizer V for some words, but it is 80-90% ready for you. Dorico, for some reason, does not include lyrics in it’s midi file (at least not readable by Synthesizer V) so you would have to re-enter them which would literally take hours.

I could not have made the examples above without Sibelius. I used Sibelius shortcuts and custom articulations and tempo changes to get the rubato feel, and the lyrics were exported with the notes. In some cases I used custom text search/replace routines (in Microsoft Word) to quickly alter the lyrics to a form that Synthesizer V needs, and this is easily done in Sibelius, just exporting all the lyrics as a single text file.

There is no program that can convincingly sing choral music as well (and intelligible) as Synthesizer V. Hollywood Choirs and other worldbuilder choral libraries are hard to understand, and take hours of time, whereas it takes a fraction of time in Synthesizer V, and the results are remarkable. If you are not familiar with it, you may be surprised to learn that the above examples are all AI (artificial intelligengence) generated by a computer. At the moment, it is limited in the size of choirs it can emulate, but in the near future, with the addition of more English voices, this will certainly become the go-to plugin for composers who want to mock up their choral arrangements.

Dorico needs to improve its ability to work with Synthesizer V if it wants to keep up with the times. There are other things about this, but I have said enough. So, for the moment, at least, I am going to stick with Sibelius, but keep an eye on Dorico (Version 5 maybe?)
Click to expand...
Exquisite writing Thomas!

I've already replied to your pause/fermata issue in the other thread. You can't expect one program to work like another. The reason the Devs are going to add the feature is because they understand some people refuse to learn to work in a different way, so they are trying to provide the workflow for every human variant. That will take time. In the meanwhile Dorico can do everything you need, but you'll need to think differently. 🍎

I also miss some Sibelius features, but Dorico has improved my productivity and workflow so much, that the missing features are negligible at this point. Just making the parts alone was something I hated doing in Sibelius, in Dorico I barely touch them from the default.
 
To add on that I would consider myself to have been a "Sibelius power user" for many years. After transitioning to Dorico, I would say that after a few years now I have become roughly twice as fast in it than I ever were in Sibelius.
 
Bollen said:
...the reason the Devs are going to add the feature [fermata playback] is because they understand some people refuse to learn to work in a different way, so they are trying to provide the workflow for every human variant. That will take time. In the meanwhile Dorico can do everything you need, but you'll need to think differently.
Click to expand...
I thank everyone for their advice and comments. I have the demo of Dorico and am trying what experts are saying here, but I still cannot get Dorico to simply play pauses (fermata's, breath-marks, etc) the way a human will do when reading music. Altering the tempo is only part of a fermata. Equally, if not more, important is the gap after the fermata, which basically moves all subsequent notes (in all parts) to the right (in playback) but keeps the notation the same. Shortening the length of a note, and slowing the tempo in the little gap is not a real solution. I'm not needing to "think differently" - I'm just wanting to do what any performer naturally does when expressing written music.

So please, I know how much better Dorico is in other ways, and that is why I am asking - can someone explain how to easily add both tempo and gaps in all the music after a note, in much the same way that Sibelius does with a single key? Or should I just wait until they add pause playback in future versions?

I also wonder why the midi export of Dorico does not include lyrics while other programs (including Sibelius) does. Does anyone know if there are plans to update this too?
 
ThomasS said:
can someone explain how to easily add both tempo and gaps in all the music after a note, in much the same way that Sibelius does with a single key?
Click to expand...
This has been explained to you twice. So I'm afraid it is an issue of "thinking differently". It cannot be done like Sibelius, but it can be done more human/organically in a different way...
 
Bollen said:
This has been explained to you twice. So I'm afraid it is an issue of "thinking differently".
Click to expand...
Perhaps I am not explaining myself too clearly. I assure you I have tried the advice explained "twice" here, and I was trying to ask why these methods can't easily and quickly do what is normal in performing rubato ensemble music.

I have produced many CD's and recordings of orchestral and choral music (especially accapella) and it is normal for the conductor or section leader to quickly scan the vocal score and tell the choir where to pause or take breaths, and they just write in commas or check-marks, and in a matter of minutes they know where to breath, and usually will leave a pause in the time to take breath before moving on. The conductor can also, at any time, cut off a note or hold it longer at will, and wait until he/she wants to start again, and if this is too complex it is just marked in the score with eyeballs or some other such symbol so that the ensemble looks carefully at the conductor in such spots. The quicker a notated score can "conduct' its own playback the better.

These kind of performance markings can be added to a printed part in the studio in a matter of minutes, and it is something equivalent to that I have always added to Sibelius, and it plays back exactly the way I want, because I have multiple symbols programed to do that. Sibelius uses symbols, entered into the score, all customizable, rather than requiring you to go into a timeline, change the length of notes, and tempos, and all of that. I don't want that because there can be a great many in a single piece and I would have to do it in each part, whereas if I make a fermata or performance-programmed breath-mark in sibelius, it affect all parts, moving the timeline to the right, But keeping the notation as is. The printed note retains its original full value, not longer or shorter, but the performers know what to do with it with a simple symbol, which is exactly what fermata and other such signs have done for centuries.

I can certainly "think differently" but in this case it is more like "thinking inefficiently." There is no need to be defensive about one particular shortcoming of Dorico compared to Sibelius, because it has more advantages than disadvantages. But in this case, it is inferior, and while not needed by some users, it is essential for me.
 
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ThomasS said:
These kind of performance markings can be added to a printed part in a matter of minutes, and it is something equivalent to that I have always added to Sibelius and it plays back exactly the way I want, because I have multiple symbols programed to do that. I do not want to go into a timeline, change the length of notes, and tempos, and all of that, because there can be a great many in a single piece and I would have to do it in each part, whereas if I make a fermata or performance-programmed breath-mark in sibelius, it affect all parts, moving the timeline to the right, But keeping the notation as is. The printed note retains its original full value, not longer or shorter, but the performers know what to do with it with a simple symbol, which is exactly what fermata and other such signs have done for centuries.
Click to expand...
all you have to do Is go to the Tempo line and change it for the fermata. Then back up to where you want it. It takes seconds...AND you can have the symbol too.

I think it's a real nose off to spite face moment if you don't enjoy Dorico over that !

Best

ed
 
ed buller said:
all you have to do Is go to the Tempo line and change it for the fermata.
Click to expand...
Thank you Ed, I'm trying that right now, but can only change the tempo. How do you get the playback to add a pause (no notes for a brief period, but keep the notation the same, and all parts move to the right)?
 
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ed buller said:
Make the tempo very very slow. Than Fast again...that will be the pause.
Click to expand...
Thank you, That method works if there is a rest in the space where you put the slow tempo. In many of my orchestral and choral scores I don't want this. The two notes surrounding the pause are full-length touching each other, and I don't want to have to shorten their notation because that looks wrong in many cases, and not necessary if there is a fermata or breath symbol. There is a method to shorten them without affecting the notation (see below) so that is the best Dorico can do at present.

Solution:
I found an answer to this in a discussion on the Steinberg website. They say pauses, fermata, caesuras, etc. do not currently affect playback, so to get both a ritard and gap afterwards, without affecting the printed score, you have to go into the timeline then using note-properties hit “Playback end offset” to make it shorter, then use the tempo adjustment to make it longer to compensate for the shorter length, then put another tempo slowdown in the gap you created, then an a-tempo on the next note. The gap can be any length depending on how slow the tempo you write in the gap, but you will need to do this for all parts, and, of course, it requires 4 or 5 keystrokes and adjustments, so this is very slow compared to selecting the note and with a single key put in a customizable symbol for fermata, caesura, breath-mark, etc. which automatically does this all in one go.

There is considerable discussion about this issue HERE and HERE TOO and many users complain that this method is cumbersome and difficult compared to Sibelius, but DSpreadbury answered saying:

"We know this is a needed feature and it is a high priority for future versions, but I can’t say for sure when it will be done."
 
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ThomasS said:
We know this is a needed feature and it is a high priority for future versions, but I can’t say for sure when it will be done."
Click to expand...
I hear you. It will get fixed. And it's already light years ahead of Sibelius. As to the lack of third party plug ins you mentioned. That is deliberate . They don't want third party. But there are lot's of goodies arriving soon and I suspect many will please you

best

ed
 
jamwerks said:
There are dozens and dozens of things Dorico can do that Sibelius can't. So much more powerfull. And to say nothing about Finale !!
Click to expand...
Agreed. There are definitely things Finale can do that neither Sibelius nor Dorico can...
 
JJP said:
Wait, are we saying these are three different tools, each with their own strengths?
Click to expand...
If you are talking about Fermatas (or is it Fermati?) than yes, there are three in both Sibelius and Dorico - short, medium and long. In Sibelius you can customize each, specifying exactly how long the note should be and, separately, how long the gap of silence after the note. These can be adjusted for each piece if you wish, depending on the tempo and style. They currently play back in Sibelius, but not yet in Dorico, but Daniel Spreadbury has assured us that it is a priority to be added, so I expect this will be coming soon, as many others (apart from me) have complained about it on the Steinberg forum.

I am sure that when this is added to Dorico there will also be the ability to customize their behavior, because this has also been discussed by others. What I don't know is whether or not Dorico will go beyond this in the way that Sibelius does, allowing you to add more fermatas (using "custom articulations" and assign them to any graphic symbol you wish. I do this, so I have lots of choices at my fingertips, but three is fine because there are other kinds of pauses in Dorico, so there will be enough choices for most users.
 
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