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DAW + notation software or just notation software for music that is not performed live?

musicalweather

musicalweather

Senior Member
My question is for people who compose music that is not performed live*: do any of you use a mix of a DAW and notation program, or even use a notation program exclusively for composition? (*Obviously, if you’re composing for live musicians, a notation program is a necessity.)

If you do this, how do you use each software?

I compose for media (games and film, mostly) and have used a DAW (DP) for over two decades. I’m pretty fast with it, and using it allows me to try out ideas freely and quickly. For longer compositions, I’ll compose a piano reduction first, then orchestrate it. I use DP’s Quickscribe to print out the reduction, which can be pretty clunky looking, but it’s just adequate enough for my purposes. I’ll also sometimes print certain parts (the brass chords, for example), just to see what I’m doing. Yeah, the process can be a bit loose and I have to do a lot of adjusting of voicings, especially.

I recently had to use a notation program for a project, and as I’ve begun to explore it, I realize it could be helpful and might bring some advantages. I’m using Dorico. I can see that I can get to better chord voicings faster if I lay it all out in front of me in notation. Technically I could do that in DP, but its notation presentation as a readable score is a bit sloppy and hard to read sometimes. I also really like Dorico's ability to generate harmonies from chords, across several instruments and using a specified rhythm. That’s awesome.

So I’m contemplating reshaping my composition process. It could be worthwhile to work out certain passages in Dorico, then transfer them over to DP, or at least print out a score, which I can then use to play in the notes into DP.

I think it's Dorico’s ambition to become both a notation program and a full-fledged DAW, but it’s still a long ways from that. DP works particularly well with video, and I find its midi editing really great, so I don’t think I’ll be leaving it. But I could use Dorico as part of my process.

My hesitations in going down the Dorico road are that 1) it’s taking a while to be even decently competent at the program and 2) setting up Dorico to play my sample libraries using Dorico Expression maps and possibly play templates would be a huge investment of time. I’m not even sure I could ultimately get them to work (everything needs to go through VE Pro…).

So I’m really curious to know whether there are people using notation programs, either in combination with DAWs or exclusively to produce finished tracks.

Thanks for any info.
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I think you're pretty much spot on with your approach, writing a piano score is most of the time the best option, at least for me it is (chord voicings, counterpoint), otherwise you may get lost in the void of getting all your libraries to do what you want instead of focus on composing.

I compose most of the time directly in Dorico, chiefly because I rely on notation instead of a piano roll and work with templates I polish along the way, tweaking the expression maps and balance and so on. But as soon as you want to add synthesizer and other Electronic sounds to your music, you will need a DAW. I don't say it's impossible to add (some) in Dorico, but it is pretty cumbersome and by far not as flexible as a DAW.

Several people here compose in notation software and export it to their DAW of choice for the final mix, or use the notated score to play it in live in their DAW.
 
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When I first got into Dorico I wrote in it and then exported the midi to Reaper and wrapped up the production there.

But for the last couple of months Ive been working on Dórico alone and just exporting stems to the DAW for mixing and mastering.

The main reason is that Dorico 5 added some cool midi features that allowed me to bypass the DAW for production. Once I had a template going it became way faster than a DAW for me.

Midi regions are an alternative to expression maps that can be used to trigger keyswitches. I use them quite a lot and add a ton of flexibility.

Also if you write for orchestra check out Noteperformer 4. It's a huge time saver. The bulk of my orchestra is being played by NPPE and VEP is for all my other libraries.

Having to go from notation to DAW felt cumbersome and I even tried to go back to writing directly in the DAW but it felt so much slower and messy.
 
I used to do it pretty similarly to you: I would sketch on paper, (later Staffpad) arrange/orchestrate in Sibelius and produce in Cubase. Now I just do everything in Dorico+VE Pro (except occasionally the Master).

I don't use Expression Maps, I just have a 2nd staff to run KS and CC, like in a DAW. This allows me to remove all the playback if necessary and keep notation pretty clean, i.e. no unnecessary markings.
 
Ivan Duch said:
Midi regions are an alternative to expression maps that can be used to trigger keyswitches. I use them quite a lot and add a ton of flexibility.
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Hello Ivan,

I am intrigued by the above sentence you wrote... do you mind elaborating how do you use MIDI regions in Dorico as an alternative to using an expression map?

Many thanks,

Maximvs
 
Maximvs said:
Hello Ivan,

I am intrigued by the above sentence you wrote... do you mind elaborating how do you use MIDI regions in Dorico as an alternative to using an expression map?

Many thanks,

Maximvs
Click to expand...
Expression maps are better and more flexible but sometimes I might just load an instrument that I'm too lazy to create an expression map for and in that case I might just just add the notes in the staff and then trigger the specific articulation with a midi region.

That tends to be the case with world instruments with very exotic articulations where the expression map would require me to create custom playing techniques.

That said they are a must for triggering loops or playing instruments that require triggering notes that shouldn't be included in the notation.
 
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Ivan Duch said:
Expression maps are better and more flexible but sometimes I might just load an instrument that I'm too lazy to create an expression map for and in that case I might just just add the notes in the staff and then trigger the specific articulation with a midi region.

That tends to be the case with world instruments with very exotic articulations where the expression map would require me to create custom playing techniques.

That said they are a must for triggering loops or playing instruments that require triggering notes that shouldn't be included in the notation.
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Thanks Ivan for your kind reply!

When you are saying 'MIDI region' do you mean that you create a separate staff where you simply add the key switches or do you add the key switches in the same track using the Dorico Key editor?

I tend to find the Dorico Expression maps and the whole procedure too complicated, this is why I am asking for the 'MIDI region' option.

Best,

Maximvs
 
Maximvs said:
Thanks Ivan for your kind reply!

When you are saying 'MIDI region' do you mean that you create a separate staff where you simply add the key switches or do you add the key switches in the same track using the Dorico Key editor?

I tend to find the Dorico Expression maps and the whole procedure too complicated, this is why I am asking for the 'MIDI region' option.

Best,

Maximvs
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My pleasure!

It's an option new to Dorico 5 named midi trigger region, the shortcut is shift+0. You can then write the note you need or play it in a midi keyboard.

Im on the move and without access to the feature link but it is in the manual and there are videos about it.
 
Ivan Duch said:
My pleasure!

It's an option new to Dorico 5 named midi trigger region, the shortcut is shift+0. You can then write the note you need or play it in a midi keyboard.

Im on the move and without access to the feature link but it is in the manual and there are videos about it.
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot! I am not yet on Dorico 5 but will check this out in a few days when I upgrade ;)

Take care...
 
musicalweather said:
My question is for people who compose music that is not performed live*: do any of you use a mix of a DAW and notation program, or even use a notation program exclusively for composition? (*Obviously, if you’re composing for live musicians, a notation program is a necessity.)
Click to expand...
I can read and notate in a rudimentary fashion, but I really don't see the point if you have no plans to pass the work on to an orchestra or other players, unless that happens to be your preferred workflow. I like to just sit down, load an instrument, and start composing. But then I'm one of those "by ear" composers that everyone seems to think aren't quite legitimate.
 
Bollen said:
I don't use Expression Maps, I just have a 2nd staff to run KS and CC, like in a DAW. This allows me to remove all the playback if necessary and keep notation pretty clean, i.e. no unnecessary markings.
Click to expand...
Hi Bollen,

I am intrigued by your way of working in Dorico without using expression maps:

- Do you basically create a secondary stave for each instrument in the score and route it to the same MIDI channel of the primary stave?

- Then you simply add the key switches notes on the secondary stave bypassing the playback and the necessary MIDI CC?

I'll appreciate if you may elaborate on your way of working without using expression maps.

Thanks a lot in advance and best regards,

Maximvs
 
Ivan Duch said:
then trigger the specific articulation with a midi region.
Click to expand...
That's very interesting, but is it possible to then edit the precise location? e.g. a few ticks before or after the event you want to trigger?
robgb said:
But then I'm one of those "by ear" composers that everyone seems to think aren't quite legitimate.
Click to expand...
Speaking as a 'legitimate' composer, I must disagree...
Maximvs said:
- Do you basically create a secondary stave for each instrument in the score and route it to the same MIDI channel of the primary stave?
Click to expand...
Precisely, I just duplicate the instrument and add KS at the end of the name. In Page view I hide them all and in Galley view I create different filters to tidy up what I'm working on e.g. just the woodwinds with their KS.
Maximvs said:
- Then you simply add the key switches notes on the secondary stave bypassing the playback and the necessary MIDI CC?
Click to expand...
I really need to make a video of this at some point, I get asked a lot. Basically the 'primary' staff is set to default i.e. Dorico controls velocity for dynamics, the 2nd staff controls KS, MIDI CC and ornaments that wouldn't be notated like trills, mordents, etc. But it's also useful for extended techniques that would normally be just a noteheads with a symbol.

Note: the 2nd staff doesn't 'bypass' anything, the primary still plays almost all notated notes (except the aforementioned), the 2nd one plays the musical expression and/or key switches.
 
Bollen said:
That's very interesting, but is it possible to then edit the precise location? e.g. a few ticks before or after the event you want to trigger?

Speaking as a 'legitimate' composer, I must disagree...

Precisely, I just duplicate the instrument and add KS at the end of the name. In Page view I hide them all and in Galley view I create different filters to tidy up what I'm working on e.g. just the woodwinds with their KS.

I really need to make a video of this at some point, I get asked a lot. Basically the 'primary' staff is set to default i.e. Dorico controls velocity for dynamics, the 2nd staff controls KS, MIDI CC and ornaments that wouldn't be notated like trills, mordents, etc. But it's also useful for extended techniques that would normally be just a noteheads with a symbol.

Note: the 2nd staff doesn't 'bypass' anything, the primary still plays almost all notated notes (except the aforementioned), the 2nd one plays the musical expression and/or key switches.
Click to expand...
Helpful. If you ever make a video I'd be curious. you left staffpad *sniff
 
Ivan Duch said:
Midi regions are an alternative to expression maps that can be used to trigger keyswitches. I use them quite a lot and add a ton of flexibility.
Click to expand...
Indeed they are!

I bought Dorico Pro from the Bestservice Sale. Learning it now.

The “Midi Trigger Region” functionality indeed seems to be quite powerful, as shown in the videos below:

First, the official Steinberg Dorico Video:



(Timestamp 1:22 -->)

In the above video Anthony concentrates on the Groove Agent functionality with drum loops, but everything is applicable to other sample libraries with key switch functionality. Why wouldn’t it be?

Shift + 0 (zero, not the alphabet) invokes the Create MIDI Region, where you can input the keycommand (and velocity).

Also, this video:



(Timestamp 2:28-5:57). If you watch it, it´s a three and a half minutes well spent!

The latter guy seems to use performance based samples or loop samples (in that case, Damage) without strict notation and with the Midi Trigger Region functionality. You just enter the keyswitch specified in the sample library (and, maybe also velocity).

Et voilà: There it is! A hybrid method of notation and non-notation, with DAW and notation software coming as close to each other as possible! This seems to really open up a lot of possibilities!
 
jonathanparham said:
Helpful. If you ever make a video I'd be curious. you left staffpad *sniff
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Bollen said:
Why? I'm just much faster on Dorico, nothing really against Staffpad. But I'm curious why you say that...
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Oh just joking. I perceived you to be a big advocate for StaffPad. You were making big band arrangements if I recall in an old StaffPad thread?

Anyhoo, Yeah if you do ever make a video of your process in Dorico, I'd be interested.
 
Bollen said:
I really need to make a video of this at some point, I get asked a lot. Basically the 'primary' staff is set to default i.e. Dorico controls velocity for dynamics, the 2nd staff controls KS, MIDI CC and ornaments that wouldn't be notated like trills, mordents, etc. But it's also useful for extended techniques that would normally be just a noteheads with a symbol.

Note: the 2nd staff doesn't 'bypass' anything, the primary still plays almost all notated notes (except the aforementioned), the 2nd one plays the musical expression and/or key switches.
Click to expand...
Many thanks for your kind reply!

I am also curious on why you are not using Dorico expression maps as entering all those separate key switches on a secondary stave seem to be quite a bit of extra work, especially when working on mid/large size orchestral scores.

I would also be very interested to see a video when you may decide to do one...
 
Bollen said:
at's very interesting, but is it possible to then edit the precise location? e.g. a few ticks before or after the event you want to trigger?
Click to expand...
Not sure about ticks, doubt it. So for detailed articulation changes it doesn't work. But you can drag them around following the grid. And it's actually needed. The trigger has to before the note. It definitely doesn't replace expression maps in my template but it is complementary.
 
jonathanparham said:
You were making big band arrangements if I recall in an old StaffPad thread?
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Yeah, maybe... Must've been a long time ago. Good memory!
Maximvs said:
I am also curious on why you are not using Dorico expression maps as entering all those separate key switches on a secondary stave seem to be quite a bit of extra work, especially when working on mid/large size orchestral scores.
Click to expand...
There are multiple reasons for it, but I do sometimes use very basic ones that control simple things like pizz, mutes, etc. The main reasons are:

1.- I don't trust them. On export, I've occasionally found some that haven't triggered.
2.- They often interfere with edits, i.e. if I want to use a different KS for a specific passage, Dorico will fight me (Sibelius did this too).
3.- They're extremely time-consuming to make and I prefer to be writing music or working on a beautiful performance (I'm not a programmer).
4.- There's no one rule that applies to all contexts, i.e. the one I usually point out is a staccato. Depending on the speed of the music, the staccato patch might completely inadequate.
 
Bollen said:
There are multiple reasons for it, but I do sometimes use very basic ones that control simple things like pizz, mutes, etc. The main reasons are:

1.- I don't trust them. On export, I've occasionally found some that haven't triggered.
2.- They often interfere with edits, i.e. if I want to use a different KS for a specific passage, Dorico will fight me (Sibelius did this too).
3.- They're extremely time-consuming to make and I prefer to be writing music or working on a beautiful performance (I'm not a programmer).
4.- There's no one rule that applies to all contexts, i.e. the one I usually point out is a staccato. Depending on the speed of the music, the staccato patch might completely inadequate.
Click to expand...
Many thanks Bollen for your kind reply and explanation of why you prefer your method over using expression maps.

My comments based on your numbered points above:

2. I can see the flexibility of your method when desiring to use a different KS.

3. I find it hard to get my head around Dorico expression Maps and I wish there were more in depth tutorials. I have seen a few guys here on VI Control using expression maps with special text techniques and according to them this method works great. I will give your method a try.

4. I see your point here.

Do you have a particular method to speed up the input of KS into the secondary stave or if you work for example on woodwinds you may copy/paste the KS that may recall a similar articulation for flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon, etc?

As I have previously mentioned, I would be very interested to see your method in action in a video tutorial, when and if you will decide to make one.

Thanks again and take care,

Maximvs 🙏
 
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