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Help me love Vangelis

Pingu

Pingu

Active Member
I recently had a discussion with someone who butted in to a FB John Williams appreciation thread, to tell us all that Vangelis was a much greater composer. He told me that nothing John Williams has written is as beautiful, grand or expansive as most of Vangelis' output.

Well I have to confess I don't know much Vangelis. I've heard Blade Runner and Chariots of Fire, of course, from which I had the opinion that he writes mainly boring music that, once in a while, is just perfect for the film and garners far more praise than it should. I've also listened to a few of his greatest hits CDs, as chosen by himself, and never changed that opinion. And finally I stopped listening at all when 1492 bored me to the point that I couldn't finish listening.

But this guy was so insistent. He asserted that Vangelis was the most innovative 20th century composer of classical music, outside of Stockhausen; the greatest innovator of electronic music bar none, and revered by anyone who works anywhere in the music world. I think he was a none musician, who believed he was talking to another, since he was clearly googling 'innovative composers' as we chatted, and kept making vague assertions of 'experts agree with me.' Nevertheless, I figured I'd never given Vangelis a fair crack, so I went to do some more listening. I listened to Mythodea, Heaven and Hell, and a compilation of vocal music called Voices.....and my impressions quickly got worse. Possibly because I was going in with this guy's insistence that I was going to hear greater music than JW, but I couldn't find anything that I even remotely found impressive. Most of his slower music seems to either sit on one chord literally forever, or revolved around one or two chord progressions that he's clearly vamped around many times. They often sound superficially profound, because he has nice pad sounds, and finds breathy vocalists who do a better job than Enya herself, but there is literally no composition as such. When he's trying to be more active it gets worse. He has a profoundly limited harmonic language, no sense of harmonic direction, very limited melody writing, has no idea how to develop motifs other than repetition - the list goes on. The opening 10 minutes of Heaven and Hell sounded like a 9 year old, with a vocabulary of three chords, had had a tantrum on a Casio keyboard.

Is there some amazing stuff somewhere that I'm missing, or is persisting going to turn up lots more of the same?
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Vangelis is definitely an acquired taste.


Some of your gripes with his harmonic and melodic development are probably down to Vangelis’s process, where everything you hear was improvised live by him alone.
 
I love Vangelis AND Williams, but their styles and moreover their approach of composition is quite opposite and I can perfectly understand that someone doesn’t like his music.

If I may suggest some great Vangelis stuff :
- See You Later, an album full of surprises, very 70s. Contains Memories of Green that will be reused in Blade Runner
- The City, an album like no others he did and one of my favorites
- Blade Runner of course, not only for the synths tracks but also the “world music” tracks
- His collaboration albums with Jon Anderson

If you hate his style, none of these albums will make you change your opinion, I’m afraid.

And as much as I love his music, I don’t consider him as the ultimate music genius like your guy - Vangelis was considering himself pretty uneducated in music.

And yes, he did some very cheesy stuff too.
Being the music I was kind of raised with, he’s my « madeleine de Proust » and I forgave him even his worst opus.
 
I'm unsure how to respond to this as Vangelis is probably my strongest musical influence. There are very few other artists whom I appreciate and respect more.

So where to start? First, Vangelis is a triumph of raw musical talent over academia and industry. Sporadic are the cases where a humble artist who learns, discovers, and lives music his or her way gets adequately recognized on a take-it or leave-it basis. This is the story of Vangelis. He was simply universally accepted for who he was. The best proof of this is perhaps his work for films. Even when collaborating with celebrated directors such as Ridley Scott, Vangelis has given a carte blanche - to paint a musical backdrop by following only his own feelings and instincts without almost any pressure or attempted guidance.

Furthermore, Vangelis was not only one of the pioneers of electronic music but also of the method of working alone in his personal studio (with occasional collaborations with other artists). This might not seem like much from today's standpoint, but it was something truly special and rare back in the days when Vangelis started his musical journey as a composer.

Finally, his simple yet memorable melodies are both instantly recognizable and emotional. To me, music doesn't have to be overly complicated in melodic and harmonic sense to be compelling. Also, I always liked his blending of different styles and frequent homage to his ancestral roots. The music mentioned above is probably only the tip of the iceberg. People who are not deeply familiar with Vangelis' music should listen to his early, more intimate works, like "L'apocalypse des Animaux".

Anyway, this is how I feel about Vangelis. I don't intend to press my opinion. Finally, De gustibus non est disputandum. Personally, I generally don't like music by John Williams and often find it loud, aggressive, and overly bombastic. Also, I always prefer more humble sound colors such as piano, synths, keyboards, etc. which are the basis of Vangelis' sound to traditional orchestral music.
 
Loïc D said:
I love Vangelis AND Williams, but their styles and moreover their approach of composition is quite opposite and I can perfectly understand that someone doesn’t like his music.

If I may suggest some great Vangelis stuff :
- See You Later, an album full of surprises, very 70s. Contains Memories of Green that will be reused in Blade Runner
- The City, an album like no others he did and one of my favorites
- Blade Runner of course, not only for the synths tracks but also the “world music” tracks
- His collaboration albums with Jon Anderson

If you hate his style, none of these albums will make you change your opinion, I’m afraid.

And as much as I love his music, I don’t consider him as the ultimate music genius like your guy - Vangelis was considering himself pretty uneducated in music.

And yes, he did some very cheesy stuff too.
Being the music I was kind of raised with, he’s my « madeleine de Proust » and I forgave him even his worst opus.
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Thanks - will definitely go have a listen. I do love Memories of Green - that track seems to have poise that goes well beyond improvising off the cuff. I don't mind cheesy either. I think the fact that this guy suggested he was in the mix with people like Ligeti and Stockhausen led me to listen to his suggestions with completely the wrong expectations.
 
Guido Negraszus said:
Very different composers. Both are brilliant in their field. I never really thought of Vangelis as a film composer, more of an electronic musician, who's music was also used in films.

Some of Vangelis finest works, melody-wise :


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Thanks - I'd actually heard those before I think, and forgotten them. I used to have a greatest hits - might have been called Themes - when I was a lot younger, that I actually did play a lot. That was in the days when I was a huge Jean Michel Jarre fan, and this seemed to be a similar wheelhouse. Much better melody writing than I'm giving him credit for.
 
I would not put Williams and Vangelis on a level. Williams writes his music for a full orchestra, on paper, and directs it. Vangelis IS the orchestra, a lot of the time, he relies a lot on spontaneous improvisation. If he doesn't feel the Muse is present, he will wait another day for it. And he has his own "sound palette" which he has developed himself. Very unique and addictive, I must say.

However to appreciate Vangelis in the soundtrack realm, I strongly recommend the sublime score for 1492 Conquest of Paradise. There is a world of music in this work. You probably can find it on Spotify of Apple music in high definition. But here is a taste.
▼


Bonne écoute! :)

P.S. You may also want to check his album DIRECT.
 
Well, I don't want to compare Williams to Vangelis. The whole art scene has gone into a crazy direction, not just since the 80s. I don't want to mention the banana taped to the wall comparison, vangelis clearly didn't deserve this kind of critical treatment. Both are legit, but talking craftsmanship, tradition and all these things, Williams clearly wins.

It's like comparing this:

Veiled_virgin.jpg


To this:

s-l1600.jpg
 
Bear in mind Vangelis is self-taught. Williams carries the tradition of classical music in him, the great traditions he brought to the screen. While Vangelis has created his own exceptional path. Two great composers.

"Starting at the age of four he played for himself, never taking lessons, as he recalled. “My parents tried to get me the best musical education, but I never responded to teachers and so I am self-taught,” he told the Melody Maker in 1974. “Also, as soon as I started to play, I started to compose, and all my life I have never played anybody else’s music.”

"Over his lifetime he released 29 studio recordings, 28 compilation albums, 12 soundtrack albums and 42 singles. And yet most of his film score work was never released, and he often said he had much more music ‘in the vault’ than he ever released."

Here is also a few credits for the 1492 soundtrack (from Wikipedia):

"On this soundtrack, Vangelis plays together with a number of performers, including two Flamenco guitarists and vocalists, violin, mandolin and flutes. As on a number of previous albums by Vangelis, the English Chamber Choir, directed by Guy Protheroe, performs the choral parts.

The sound engineering was done by Philippe Colonna and coordination by French musician Frederick Rousseau (also known for his collaborations with Jean-Michel Jarre), who has been Vangelis's studio partner since the 1980s till the recording of the Alexander soundtrack.

Vangelis plays all synthesizers, using mainly string patches but also several ethnic ones, to reflect the character of the film, and electric piano and harp patches. Some calmer, atmospheric pieces (tracks 3, 7, 11 and 12) are entirely performed by Vangelis, using pianos, strings and harp.

For the ethnic music, Vangelis consulted with French specialist Xavier Belanger, who has advised other artists on similar issues, including Jean-Michel Jarre."
 
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There really is no comparison.
Pingu said:
He asserted that Vangelis was the most innovative 20th century composer of classical music, outside of Stockhausen; the greatest innovator of electronic music bar none, and revered by anyone who works anywhere in the music world
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This is just silly TBH. He certainly was interesting but innovative? Harmonically he is very simple ( nothing wrong there) same with sounds and textures. in Fact there's something quasi "New Age" about a lot of his sonics. He never achieved the same challenging depths of texture as Tomita or Tangerine Dream, or ENO.

In fact he has More in common with Jean Micheal Jarre than the Synth pioneers of the 60's and 70's.

He DID have a knack for a good tune, but again simple. Lot's of reparation. Chariots of fire is good example.

For instance as beautiful and dramatic as the Blade Runner moments are:



The sounds are generic synth patches and even though the chords are heavily chromatic, the effect is one huge massive drone

whereas:



really does sound like music from another world!


Best

ed
 
To me it is quite simple.

John Williams is a masterful composer and one of the greats, where Vangelis pulls on my heartstrings in ways that in most cases Williams is not able to do with his music. I see Vangelis more as a voice of the unconscious dreams in the collective psyche of humanity, where Williams on the other hand is in his way perfecting the art of film composing and orchestration (yes, I am aware that he has created classical pieces too, but want to keep it simple here) - and creating absolutely beautiful music for the orchestra.

So I love and admire them both, but mainly for different reasons.
 
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FinGael said:
To me it is quite simple.

John Williams is a masterful composer and one of the greats, where Vangelis pulls on my heartstrings in ways that in most cases Williams is not able to do with his music. I see Vangelis more of a voice of the unconscious dreams in the collective psyche of humanity, where Williams on the other hand is in his way perfecting the art of film composing and orchestration (yes, I am aware that he has created classical pieces too, but want to keep it simple here) - and creating absolutely beautiful music for the orchestra.

So I love and admire them both, but mainly for different reasons.
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Ditto!
 
It would never occur to me to suggest Vangelis was greater than (or even comparable to ) John Williams. On the other hand, I am never tempted to sit and listen to the music of John Williams but frequently put on tracks by Vangelis (though nothing post his album The City).

All this proves is simply that I was born in the '60s, ate Wilson's Good Vibrations day in day out until the smorgasbord of Vangelis, Jean Michel-Jarre, Kraftwerk and Tangerine Dream fed my lust for electronic sounds when I hit my teens and still provide necessary sustenance.

My personal favourites by Vangelis (in addition to those mentioned by Loïc D above) are:

Irlande and Flamant Roses (from Opera Sauvage), the albums China and Albedo 0.39
should anyone be at all interested (I cannot imagine why they would).
 
ed buller said:
whereas:



really does sound like music from another world!
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True, although I think I would probably argue that Tangerine Dream had very little actual musical ability or imagination. I strongly suspect that they were random button tweakers, who hit on some exciting aleatoric sounds that captured the moment. I was a big fan, and had most of their cassettes in the 80s. Then I learned they were still releasing stuff about 10 years ago, and bought a boxed set of their newest albums, and am literally using them as coasters. It's as though someone told them 'you've got to stop with all the random noises, and show us you can do harmony and traditional structures;' and they have, except they can't. They have a harmonic vocabulary smaller than Vangelis, they use awful 80s pad sounds, and have quite a limited sax player noodling over a lot of it. I wouldn't even play it in those shops where you buy wind chimes and scented candles.
 
Guido Negraszus said:
Very different composers. Both are brilliant in their field. I never really thought of Vangelis as a film composer.
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True. One more reason why I love his music so much. Unlike most other ad hoc film composers, I can always listen to soundtracks by Vangelis with ease on their own without the confines of the film. The only other film composer I could mention in that respect as well is Morricone.
creativeforge said:
Bear in mind Vangelis is self-taught. Williams carries the tradition of classical music in him, the great traditions he brought to the screen. While Vangelis has created his own exceptional path. Two great composers.
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Absolutely. I'm probably biased because of my musical background, but I will always give the edge to talented people who discover, feel, and create music their way without the pressure of their peers or tradition. Not that I don't appreciate and respect classically trained musicians and composers. But technique and craft can be learned, perfected, and mastered with time through effort. Especially in the case of talented individuals who have the right guidance and good teachers.
 
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