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Subito, sfz, fp, pf, other combined dynamics - differences in use?

wing

Active Member
First of all I should say that I do understand when and why to use sf/sfz.

But many of the other specialized dynamics confuse me at times. As a player if I was reading a part written in pp and I saw an upcoming downbeat which says f, I would think that means to play at forte on the beat where it is marked. Unless there's a hairpin or crescendo marking, I wouldn't assume that is gradual. So what is the point of adding subito or sub.? Just to ensure there is no misinterpretation in performance? Does it make any difference in playback from notation software? Because I've played with adding it in Dorico which I use, and the difference in playback is basically the exact same. It plays the dynamic where it's marked. In other words, subito seems superfluous.

fp and pf are interesting, yet even reading up on them I don't really understand their duration. Let's say I had this phrase:

Screenshot 2024-01-31 at 11.58.07 PM.png

It's a legato phrase in particular, but if marked this way, does that mean only the first note above the marking is played forte, then the rest piano? Or the entire phrase? And then is everything after that assumed to be played at piano unless marked otherwise?

Lastly, there are combined dynamics (in Dorico anyway).

Taking that same phrase, I could do this -

Screenshot 2024-01-31 at 11.49.54 PM.png

Which I would take to mean play initially at mf and then gradually decrease to pppp (I mean ok maybe that short phrase isn't the best example for such a drastic volume change, but you get the idea). Either way how would that be any different from dynamics with a hairpin in between, like so?

Screenshot 2024-01-31 at 11.50.16 PM.png

It might help to say I'm sometimes looking for a way to tell a player (and Dorico's playback) to bring a brief phrase to the foreground in volume, and then taper off back to the quieter dynamic. Are the combined dynamics such as mf-pp for example the best tool for that job?
 
So what is the point of adding subito or sub.?

To clarify that an obvious abrupt effect is intended, and that a dynamic marking was not inadvertently left out of the part, and that the player didn’t miss anything. Tells them you're looking for sharp corners.

Does it make any difference in playback from notation software? Because I've played with adding it in Dorico which I use, and the difference in playback is basically

Dynamic playback in notation software is still pretty bad and unsubtle and out of context, but in your scenario Dorico is just doing what it’s told; it's not intelligent enough to doubt or question, or wonder whether the effect should be made less dramatic for musical reasons.

fp and pf are interesting, yet even reading up on them I don't really understand their duration. Let's say I had this phrase:

Screenshot 2024-01-31 at 11.58.07 PM.png

It's a legato phrase in particular, but if marked this way, does that mean only the first note above the marking is played forte, then the rest piano? Or the entire phrase? And then is everything after that assumed to be played at piano unless marked otherwise?

An fp is not just a subito dynamic contrast, but really a dramatically exaggerated dynamic accent. A typical, modern fp is performed to sound “immediate” within the tempo and musical context, about as fast and abrupt from f to p as is musically tasteful. For example, for an fp on a half-note, the f would be played about the length of the first 16th, and land on p right around the second 16th, on average. All of this notwithstanding a particular interpretation justified by the music itself.

If it helps make the point regarding the immediacy of it, consider the fact that a timpanist executes an fp roll by playing one sharp stroke in f, all by itself, and then begins a roll in p, i.e., two separate actions.

So for your example, at a slow or slow-moderate tempo, the fp might be executed entirely within that first 8th note, but for a fast-moderate or fast tempo, the player might aim to land on p on the second 8th, with the first 8th being fully at f for the duration. It's all very interpretive, especially in your case since typically the fp effect is used on a note that's at least just long enough for the effect to be fully heard within that note, for a note of roughly one second or longer.

Lastly, there are combined dynamics (in Dorico anyway).

Taking that same phrase, I could do this -

Screenshot 2024-01-31 at 11.49.54 PM.png

Which I would take to mean play initially at mf and then gradually decrease to pppp.

If you use hyphenated dynamics you’d best include a performance note for the musician. Unless a particular effect is attached to a special notation like this, one that you can’t achieve using conventional notation, you might want to think twice about using it.

I would only use it if I wanted a modified fp type of effect, where the hyphen is there to make it easier to read: mf-pppp, though I’ve never had occasion to do that, and if I did, it would probably be on a longer note.

In any case, in your example above it's unclear what the hyphen is supposed to indicate, or if it's supposed to be attached to the mf before it, and whether the pppp pertains to the second 8th note or to the dotted-q after it. But in the example below, your intent is unambiguous: you want a diminuendo to pppp that arrived on the last note. Much better.

Either way how would that be any different from dynamics with a hairpin in between, like so?

Screenshot 2024-01-31 at 11.50.16 PM.png

It might help to say I'm sometimes looking for a way to tell a player (and Dorico's playback) to bring a brief phrase to the foreground in volume, and then taper off back to the quieter dynamic. Are the combined dynamics such as mf-pp for example the best tool for that job?

No. Some musicians may even interpret that as the contemporary effect of fluctuating dynamics. Just think of what you’d like the player to do and use conventional notation to indicate that unambiguously. If at some point you have to use notation that is not standardized for a particular thing, that’s fine as long as you choose the simplest and clearest of the available options (or if none exist, invent your own), and you include a performance note.
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To clarify that an obvious abrupt effect is intended, and that a dynamic marking was not inadvertently left out of the part, and that the player didn’t miss anything. Tells them you're looking for sharp corners.



Dynamic playback in notation software is still pretty bad and unsubtle and out of context, but in your scenario Dorico is just doing what it’s told; it's not intelligent enough to doubt or question, or wonder whether the effect should be made less dramatic for musical reasons.



An fp is not just a subito dynamic contrast, but really a dramatically exaggerated dynamic accent. A typical, modern fp is performed to sound “immediate” within the tempo and musical context, about as fast and abrupt from f to p as is musically tasteful. For example, for an fp on a half-note, the f would be played about the length of the first 16th, and land on p right around the second 16th, on average. All of this notwithstanding a particular interpretation justified by the music itself.

If it helps make the point regarding the immediacy of it, consider the fact that a timpanist executes an fp roll by playing one sharp stroke in f, all by itself, and then begins a roll in p, i.e., two separate actions.

So for your example, at a slow or slow-moderate tempo, the fp might be executed entirely within that first 8th note, but for a fast-moderate or fast tempo, the player might aim to land on p on the second 8th, with the first 8th being fully at f for the duration. It's all very interpretive, especially in your case since typically the fp effect is used on a note that's at least just long enough for the effect to be fully heard within that note, for a note of roughly one second or longer.



If you use hyphenated dynamics you’d best include a performance note for the musician. Unless a particular effect is attached to a special notation like this, one that you can’t achieve using conventional notation, you might want to think twice about using it.

I would only use it if I wanted a modified fp type of effect, where the hyphen is there to make it easier to read: mf-pppp, though I’ve never had occasion to do that, and if I did, it would probably be on a longer note.

In any case, in your example above it's unclear what the hyphen is supposed to indicate, or if it's supposed to be attached to the mf before it, and whether the pppp pertains to the second 8th note or to the dotted-q after it. But in the example below, your intent is unambiguous: you want a diminuendo to pppp that arrived on the last note. Much better.





No. Some musicians may even interpret that as the contemporary effect of fluctuating dynamics. Just think of what you’d like the player to do and use conventional notation to indicate that unambiguously. If at some point you have to use notation that is not standardized for a particular thing, that’s fine as long as you choose the simplest and clearest of the available options (or if none exist, invent your own), and you include a performance note.
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Thanks for the thorough response, that's super helpful! With Dorico it's not entirely clear what the combined dynamics panel is for (which is where I found stuff like mf-pp for example) - even the manual doesn't really explain it (it declares their existence but doesn't dive into why you would use such markings).

Another thing I'm trying to figure out, and this surprises me that this apparently has not been invented - but I was looking for something which is literally the opposite of sfz/sf. That is, if sfz means a sudden but temporary emphasis where marked, it would seem that some composers somewhere in time have considered the opposite effect: a sudden de-emphasis only where marked. Perhaps it doesn't seem logical but I could see a line where you would want maybe certain notes to be drastically quieter before returning to normal volume. Yes, one can use subito piano or p. sub but this is a static/permanent marking, to remain at piano from that note onward. What I have in mind is you're playing along at mf, then one note gets drastically quieter at pp, and then returns to mf thereafter. Of course this can be manually marked but just wondering if such a thing actually exists and I just don't know the name for it?
 
Another thing I'm trying to figure out, and this surprises me that this apparently has not been invented - but I was looking for something which is literally the opposite of sfz/sf. That is, if sfz means a sudden but temporary emphasis where marked, it would seem that some composers somewhere in time have considered the opposite effect: a sudden de-emphasis only where marked. Perhaps it doesn't seem logical but I could see a line where you would want maybe certain notes to be drastically quieter before returning to normal volume. Yes, one can use subito piano or p. sub but this is a static/permanent marking, to remain at piano from that note onward. What I have in mind is you're playing along at mf, then one note gets drastically quieter at pp, and then returns to mf thereafter. Of course this can be manually marked but just wondering if such a thing actually exists and I just don't know the name for it?

I don't recall ever seeing a ppmf anywhere, but you could do it, though it'd be more suited to a sustained note. Probably the easiest would be to use ppmf with a tight box around it so the player will not mis-scan it as mfpp, and it'd be considered a non-standard special effect. Include performance note of course.

For individual non-sustained notes that don't proceed too fast—e.g., notes roughly from 0.25s to 1.5s—you can use a device sometimes called "ducking". You use the non-stress symbol and explain what you want in the performance note, e.g., "Reduce dynamic by about two or three levels, enough to be a noticeable drop, but not so much that the note becomes negligible. And in further contrast to the surrounding notes, play with a smooth onset, non marcato."
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