Menu
What's new
By:
Filters

How to write epic soundtracks in the Bergersen/Instrumental Core style?

E

Epic Inspector

New Member
Hello everyone,

This is my first question in the entire forum since I am a new member her and I am so glad to talk to you all.

As I introduced myself elsewhere in the forum, I am a 45 yrs old composer and I've been composing for 6 years now. I am dealing with sync music libraries, both exclusive and non exclusive. I have a few placements here and there and I am feeling comfortable producing tracks that fit the libraries' needs.

Now, I am deciding to take a brand new route besides my sync writing, which is writing long epic soundtracks (and hopefully albums) in the style of Bergersen and Instrumental Core directly for the public. The recent IC's album with Really Slow Motion "Antique" pushed that decision even further.

My question guys, does anyone know a specialized online course or reading materials that teaches that specific genre? especially its arrangement and orchestration?

I recently enrolled to the hybrid orchestral course by Randon Purcell in the MTS platform but the course seems focusing on the hybrid orchestral trailer sound and structure, not soundtracks.

Appreciate your help. Thanks

Please listen to this beautiful piece of music to get an idea of what I mean.

Click to read more...
 
Maybe not the easy answer you're looking for: It's all there. Listen, try to get that feeling.

I mean, there are a lot of onlinecourses regarding mixing and orchestrating, but there won't be a perfect course to sound like anyone else. You'll either sound like yourself or learn to sound like somebody else. Honest question: Which composer truthfully wants to sound like somebody else? That's not the goal if you ask me.

One trick that I can tell you is, that TSFH are doubling samples with real recordings. Please correct me if this not the case anymore, I don't want to speak for anyone else except me here.

Regarding mixing, Thomas told me years ago to not stop and learn. It all will come to you in time, just stick to the direction you want to go.
 
@ghostnote thanks a lot for answering. Not at all, your answer makes sense to me. I definitely not trying to mimic other composers' sounds but I am trying to specifically learn the deep inner workings of these types of tracks. I can write something like that but it still feels thin and lacks that background thickness. The outer sounds are more achievable.
 
Sorry, it wasn't my intend to assume that you want to sound like someone else, but I also admire Thomas and of course Nick for their works, so I can relate. They have been along for me for quite some time.

What do you mean by deep inner workings? Is it the writing itself or the, how do I say this eloquently, the sensation that comes with it? Many composers can write something along the lines of TSFH, but getting the feeling, the aura which it creates in your head, can sometimes be very difficult to realise. If someone hasn't achieved the knowledge and of course the experience in mixing virtual instruments realistically plus creating that space trough the use of reverb.

There's no workaround. I can't tell you how many hours, maybe monts I've spend to listen to TSFH recordings, tweaking my template, making A/B tests. It's really a journey and can't be explained in a single post. Maybe, the absolute answer, as banal it sounds, is instinct.
 
ghostnote said:
What do you mean by deep inner workings? Is it the writing itself or the, how do I say this eloquently, the sensation that comes with it?
Click to expand...
I meant the inner sounds and textures that my ears can't catch easily. Of course, I would learn more if I had my hands on the score itself but obviously I didn't find it as it's a brand new music released so no learning materials for it at the moment.

ghostnote said:
Maybe, the absolute answer, as banal it sounds, is instinct.
Click to expand...
I hear you in this and couldn't agree more. Trials and errors are my best friends no worries. I keep enjoying experimenting things and I get good results sometimes.

ghostnote said:
Sorry, it wasn't my intend to assume that you want to sound like someone else
Click to expand...
No need to be sorry my friend. I think it doesn't hurt much to sound like someone else privately (not commercially) then later fine tune it to sound like yours when you go public. After all, most of the epic soundtracks sound the same anyways. The average listener can't differentiate between the powerful choir of IC and the powerful choir of Bergersen or the powerful choir in Jo Blankenburg
 
Epic Inspector said:
Hello everyone,

This is my first question in the entire forum since I am a new member her and I am so glad to talk to you all.

As I introduced myself elsewhere in the forum, I am a 45 yrs old composer and I've been composing for 6 years now. I am dealing with sync music libraries, both exclusive and non exclusive. I have a few placements here and there and I am feeling comfortable producing tracks that fit the libraries' needs.

Now, I am deciding to take a brand new route besides my sync writing, which is writing long epic soundtracks (and hopefully albums) in the style of Bergersen and Instrumental Core directly for the public. The recent IC's album with Really Slow Motion "Antique" pushed that decision even further.

My question guys, does anyone know a specialized online course or reading materials that teaches that specific genre? especially its arrangement and orchestration?

I recently enrolled to the hybrid orchestral course by Randon Purcell in the MTS platform but the course seems focusing on the hybrid orchestral trailer sound and structure, not soundtracks.

Appreciate your help. Thanks

Please listen to this beautiful piece of music to get an idea of what I mean.

Click to expand...

The orchestration isn't something you need a special course for, it's straight forward orchestration you'd use in production music, with a few extra instruments being featured. As the reply above me says, it's all there when you listen to it... (It really is).

If you know how to orchestrate strings, brass, etc effectively, you already know how to orchestrate a piece like this. The only thing 'different' then what you might normally do is its use of call and response, in an almost cyclic pattern. The strings double with different instruments at different times sometimes its solo violin or cello; sometimes solo voice; perhaps solo voice + violin; possibly some electric violin or cello in there; the occasional section where some type of world instrument is featured like dulcimer, erhu, or anything else you feel would elevate the piece. You see this same technique used in more traditional orchestral music, where different woodwinds are used as call and response instead of the voice, solos and various world instruments you find in a piece like this.

The best way to understand a piece like this is to try and recreate it by ear. Figure out what combinations of instruments are being layered together, recreate the call and response pattern using the same instruments, if you don't know what the exact instrument is find the closest match.

Finally a question... Are you sure it's the 'orchestration' you're asking about, or is it really a series of bigger picture questions? A piece like this is the some of many parts - harmony and modulation, choice of instruments, call and response, how the orchestra is voiced... (It seems common for people ask a seemingly simple question about 'orchestration', when in reality they're actually asking a series of questions that ultimately add up to what makes a piece the sum of its parts)....
 
The trick with this style of music is almost all in the production and arranging. Musically, the example you posted is actually quite simple, it is mostly diatonic with a few cool uses of modal interchange chords (particularly at one point the bVImaj, bVIImaj, Imaj, bIII progression. The resolution on the parallel major I chord adds that epic "lift" in the phrase where you are typically expecting the minor i chord)

A lot of your weight and thickness in this track is coming from the production and arranging. The synths, percussion, and RTM guitars are adding a lot of energy, width, and weight to the mix. You have the RTM guitars, tikitakis/shakers, and high synth pulses establishing a very wide stereo image and adding momentum and energy to the track. The synths especially help to make the 16th note rhythms super crisp and wide.

Then the hits and low perc are super punchy, I can pretty much guarantee this a mix of Keepforest Ferrum and Devastator low perc. Super processed with tons of weight and punch, side chaining on the other elements of the track to punch out super nicely.

You have short strings following the 16th note groove and harmony, then you have a melody that is being doubled with synths, vocals, brass, and strings, and probably some other instruments in there as well. It is super thick and heavily reniforcing that catchy melody. Pretty much everything about this track is serving to support the melody. Harmony is reinforced underneath with lower voices of the horns, choir, trombones, and some more synth layering. All this comes together to create a super powerful arrangement where, musically there isn't really anything crazy going on, everything is just super locked in with each other and has a clear purpose.

In all I would say the key to a lot of epic music really comes down to taking a pretty simple musical idea, and having an arrangement that is very full and balanced top to bottom, and primarily supporting a strong melody. Double and triple your melody across multiple octaves, use simple and well structured clear harmonies to support your melody, and make sure your rhythms and parts are all super locked in with one another. This arrangement is so clear because there are no rogue parts that are playing something out in left field, every element is supporting each other nicely.
 
jcrosby said:
If you know how to orchestrate strings, brass, etc effectively, you already know how to orchestrate a piece like this. The only thing 'different' then what you might normally do is its use of call and response, in an almost cyclic pattern. The strings double with different instruments at different times sometimes its solo violin or cello; sometimes solo voice; perhaps solo voice + violin; possibly some electric violin or cello in there; the occasional section where some type of world instrument is featured like dulcimer, erhu, or anything else you feel would elevate the piece. You see this same technique used in more traditional orchestral music, where different woodwinds are used as call and response instead of the voice, solos and various world instruments you find in a piece like this.
Click to expand...
I just wanna start by thanking you on your analysis. Yes, you're right, my question relates more to the call/response, instrumentation layering and its arrangement in general, not orchestration sorry. As per my first reply to @ghostnote, I do know how to write a style like this but it still sounds thin and lacks thickness. I always thought that it has something to do with my mixing abilities because my mixing/mastering skills are not top notch. Still working on them.

So thank you for re-phrasing my question.

jcrosby said:
Finally a question... Are you sure it's the 'orchestration' you're asking about, or is it really a series of bigger picture questions? A piece like this is the some of many parts - harmony and modulation, choice of instruments, call and response, how the orchestra is voiced... (It seems common for people ask a seemingly simple question about 'orchestration', when in reality they're actually asking a series of questions that ultimately add up to what makes a piece the sum of its parts)....
Click to expand...
A series of a bigger picture yes. It's like you're reading my mind when I posted my question. Sometimes, I fail to describe what I need when writing on the keyboard but if I am talking face to face with you, I would be more explanatory of course :)

So yes the question is more about that "shiny & polished" picture of the piece. Many would think it's the mixing/mastering that does this polishing but good arrangements do this even without huge mixing.


All in all, great answer my friend and analysis :)

Seems listening is my best friend at this stage.
 
SyMTiK said:
The trick with this style of music is almost all in the production and arranging. Musically, the example you posted is actually quite simple, it is mostly diatonic with a few cool uses of modal interchange chords (particularly at one point the bVImaj, bVIImaj, Imaj, bIII progression. The resolution on the parallel major I chord adds that epic "lift" in the phrase where you are typically expecting the minor i chord)

A lot of your weight and thickness in this track is coming from the production and arranging. The synths, percussion, and RTM guitars are adding a lot of energy, width, and weight to the mix. You have the RTM guitars, tikitakis/shakers, and high synth pulses establishing a very wide stereo image and adding momentum and energy to the track. The synths especially help to make the 16th note rhythms super crisp and wide.

Then the hits and low perc are super punchy, I can pretty much guarantee this a mix of Keepforest Ferrum and Devastator low perc. Super processed with tons of weight and punch, side chaining on the other elements of the track to punch out super nicely.

You have short strings following the 16th note groove and harmony, then you have a melody that is being doubled with synths, vocals, brass, and strings, and probably some other instruments in there as well. It is super thick and heavily reniforcing that catchy melody. Pretty much everything about this track is serving to support the melody. Harmony is reinforced underneath with lower voices of the horns, choir, trombones, and some more synth layering. All this comes together to create a super powerful arrangement where, musically there isn't really anything crazy going on, everything is just super locked in with each other and has a clear purpose.

In all I would say the key to a lot of epic music really comes down to taking a pretty simple musical idea, and having an arrangement that is very full and balanced top to bottom, and primarily supporting a strong melody. Double and triple your melody across multiple octaves, use simple and well structured clear harmonies to support your melody, and make sure your rhythms and parts are all super locked in with one another. This arrangement is so clear because there are no rogue parts that are playing something out in left field, every element is supporting each other nicely.
Click to expand...
Another great analysis, thank you so much
 
Epic Inspector said:
I just wanna start by thanking you on your analysis. Yes, you're right, my question relates more to the call/response, instrumentation layering and its arrangement in general, not orchestration sorry. As per my first reply to @ghostnote, I do know how to write a style like this but it still sounds thin and lacks thickness. I always thought that it has something to do with my mixing abilities because my mixing/mastering skills are not top notch. Still working on them.

So thank you for re-phrasing my question.


A series of a bigger picture yes. It's like you're reading my mind when I posted my question. Sometimes, I fail to describe what I need when writing on the keyboard but if I am talking face to face with you, I would be more explanatory of course :)

So yes the question is more about that "shiny & polished" picture of the piece. Many would think it's the mixing/mastering that does this polishing but good arrangements do this even without huge mixing.


All in all, great answer my friend and analysis :)

Seems listening is my best friend at this stage.
Click to expand...
Speaking from my own experience, transcribing/recreating a piece is IME the most direct path for styles like this... Mark Petrie wrote a fantastic reply over a Music Library Report some years back, about learning how to write trailer music... Even if you only wanted to make "epic music" the same concepts generally apply... (If you don't know Mark look him up!)

"Any attempt at producing trailer music without that immersion will be simply a guess at what it should sound like – a facsimile.

One sure fire to stay true / authentic to the trailer sound is to do a handful of sound-alikes – taking tracks that were used on recent trailers and trying to re-create them from the ground up.

Load the guide track into your DAW, and go about re-creating every note, and then every element of the arrangement. There’s a huge benefit to this – you’re going under the hood by listening back and forth to each bar until you match exactly what was done in the original track.

Then once you’ve done that, I suggest a twist on that sound-alike exercise – starting with a sketched (piano only) midi transcription of a successful track, mute the original and turn the sketch into your own piece – modifying the whole thing so it soon has turned into something quite different. Then, as you get close to finishing your ‘v1’, go back to the source material and see where things are lacking, and maybe get some production ideas."

musiclibraryreport.com

What does it take to get become a composer at a company like Really Slow Motion?

I'm a newbie to this world, and I am probably waaaay out over myself, but what are some things that a place like that will be looking for? I feel like my tracks are close to a professional level for their genre (orchestral/cinematic), and although trailer music isn't my specialty, I think I can...
musiclibraryreport.com

The arrangement will obvioiulsy impact thickness most, however it sounds like you're also referring to mixing (for example your use of 'thin'... Poor orchestration often results in mud, 'thin' often (but not always) describes a mix...)

Mixing does have an enormous impact. A great piece of music will always stand up on its own in its raw form, there's no question about that... But once you start to really get a handle on mixing for this style, (in my case commercial trailers), when you bypass your processing a piece will sound like it's lost quite a bit of life...

Mixing is a whole skill set and discussion of its own though, and ultimately is something that takes a long time to develop through years of repetition and practice... If you think about it, it's only been considered part of the modern composing skill set for that past 20-ish years. IME it's one of those skills many composers often never fully feel comfortable with...

Again though, that's a whole other topic... Plenty of threads here about it already for you to explore...
 
@jcrosby thank you once again man, that was very informative. Thanks for the MLR link!

Mark Petrie is one of my favorite trailer beasts in my learning playlist. It's good to know that he recommends this learning strategy when it comes to trailer music. Good to know! Less composers borrow, great composers steal, right? haha thanks bud
 
Awesome, glad you find it helpful... Hope it comes out well. Yeah, Mark's amazing. If there's anyone's advice worth considering it's his.. You might also search MLR for Mark_Petrie, he's offered some great feedback when people have asked similar questions over the years... (Ironically the thread I linked is about Really Slow Motion)
 
jcrosby said:
Awesome, glad you find it helpful... Hope it comes out well. Yeah, Mark's amazing. If there's anyone's advice worth considering it's his.. You might also search MLR for Mark_Petrie, he's offered some great feedback when people have asked similar questions over the years... (Ironically the thread I linked is about Really Slow Motion)
Click to expand...
No worries, RSM is also another beast in my learning playlist. But Audiomachine is the first in the playlist haha. I remember I listened to a full album by Petrie that was published by a sub label at KPM website. It was some kind of cinematic tension but is super cool.
 
You reference both Thomas Bergersen and Really Slow Motion/Instrumental Core in the original post, but these are very different standards to measure yourself against. It would be helpful if you were more specific in what qualities from the reference you are hoping to learn and apply in your music. Which things do you like about it that are missing in your own work? Speaking of, it would also be helpful if you could share some of your music so we can give more specific advice.

Epic Inspector said:
I am gonna try Petrie's advice for real and re-create this Antique track and let's see what will happen.
Click to expand...
Transcription is always a good idea!
 
ghostnote said:
One trick that I can tell you is, that TSFH are doubling samples with real recordings. Please correct me if this not the case anymore, I don't want to speak for anyone else except me here.
Click to expand...
Depends on the piece. Plenty of pieces by Thomas Bergersen are done completely virtually. For example:










(These last two have some solo violin sweetening)
 
Snarf said:
You reference both Thomas Bergersen and Really Slow Motion/Instrumental Core in the original post, but these are very different standards to measure yourself against. It would be helpful if you were more specific in what qualities from the reference you are hoping to learn and apply in your music. Which things do you like about it that are missing in your own work? Speaking of, it would also be helpful if you could share some of your music so we can give more specific advice.
Click to expand...
I am not really sure what my music lacks except when I do epic music like IC or Bergersen, it doesn't sound as rich as them. For trailer cues, I can say they're good as long as sync libraries accept them. This is the only way to judge if my music is good or bad, fit or doesn't fit. But when it comes to long epic soundtracks, I fail to make it rich and interesting because also compositionally I need to turn it into a rollercoaster of calm parts with modal interchange then powerful parts that emphasize the melody with different instrumentation. The structure of a soundtrack is definitely longer than a trailer.

However, in this thread, I received from the cool guys up there @jcrosby, @SyMTiK and @ghostnote great advices to keep me going. In other words, there's not a known system or standard to write an epic soundtrack except by transcribing the whole thing.

Here is a couple of tracks from my latest album that I just finished and submitted last week.

www.dropbox.com

A Fight of Light and Darkness.mp3

Shared with Dropbox
www.dropbox.com www.dropbox.com

www.dropbox.com

The Fall of Atlantis.mp3

Shared with Dropbox
www.dropbox.com www.dropbox.com
 
Epic Inspector said:
My question guys, does anyone know a specialized online course or reading materials that teaches that specific genre? especially its arrangement and orchestration?
Click to expand...
I tried to come up with that in my online course myself, however, music - like mentioned - before should be always from the perspective of expressing your own emotions and feelings.

Thomas does this Storytelling a lot and there are also several tutorials on how to compose like him. Look for Alex Moukala.
One special thing about Thomas is, that there are so incredible many many notes in his compositions. There is always a hidden detail somewhere to make a track more intresting. He once mentioned, this is because he gets bored of his own tracks very quickly :D
But you can simply try this by your own by for example splitting a note maybe into triplets and let them play a simple step line by a different instrument. Just try it and feel the difference.
Then there is a massive orchestration going on, so that the whole frequency spectrum is always covered. This should be the aming point for your compositions.
And of course it's the interaction between melody and several counter melodies what makes his music so rich and powerful.

One of my favorite videos is this:


I hope this helps. Good luck, and let us hear, what you come up with!

To your success,
Michael
 
Last edited:
@SevenTearsOfHope Thanks a lot for the insights my friend. I know Alex Moukala's channel of course, he's one of the humble and humorous trailer composers out there. Honestly, after I saw the great guys in here (and of course Mark Petrie) suggesting to "re-create" a music that I love that it's the best way to learn this directly, I had no choice but be convinced. When I asked the question, I thought there may be other standards or education material that may help me to reach that goal but it seems there are none and the only option for me now is to learn through the re-creation process. I'm always having fun re-creating music and I worked on some covers of Zimmer, video games and just one Williams track haha. So, I already feel at home. However, the trick that is completely new to me is to "Twist" that re-recreation to make it mine since I used to compose from scratch, not from an existing re-creation.

We will see what I can do :)
 
Epic Inspector said:
@SevenTearsOfHope Thanks a lot for the insights my friend. I know Alex Moukala's channel of course, he's one of the humble and humorous trailer composers out there. Honestly, after I saw the great guys in here (and of course Mark Petrie) suggesting to "re-create" a music that I love that it's the best way to learn this directly, I had no choice but be convinced. When I asked the question, I thought there may be other standards or education material that may help me to reach that goal but it seems there are none and the only option for me now is to learn through the re-creation process. I'm always having fun re-creating music and I worked on some covers of Zimmer, video games and just one Williams track haha. So, I already feel at home. However, the trick that is completely new to me is to "Twist" that re-recreation to make it mine since I used to compose from scratch, not from an existing re-creation.

We will see what I can do :)
Click to expand...
I wish you a lot of fun, and all the best. Curious what you come up with!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom