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When can I start learning jazz composition?

Skyleo

Skyleo

Member
Hello!
I have a little question: when do you consider it ideal to "properly" start learning jazz composition and arrangement?

Back when I was studying classical music at the conservatory, it was kind of mandatory to take at least some harmony lessons for a year or two before being able to enroll in composition classes. Learning any kind of instrument was similar and like everyone else, I had to do a year of music theory (solfège) before starting piano lessons.
I unfortunately don't have the time to go to school for jazz at the moment (one day I hope!) so I've been reading a pretty comprehensive jazz theory book lately, assuming it's necessary before delving into the composition and arrangement-oriented ones I have. But I do wonder, at which point can I safely start reading and practicing with the ones for composition, together with the theory one(s)? What are the prerequisites?

If it's of any indication, here are some old and modest attempts of jazz tunes I wrote many years ago (entirely self-taught and without that much experience so nothing to write home about, though!):





Any pointers would be very appreciated. Thanks very much in advance!
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R.G. said:
You can start now.
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Out of curiosity, what books?
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Ah, that's great to hear, thank you very much! I'm a bit afraid of encountering scales / modes and forms that I don't know about yet right off the bat, though... Maybe I should try a few pages and see if it seems alright.

As for the books, I'm reading Jazz Theory and Practice by Richard Lawn and Jeffrey L. Hellmer. I also have The Jazz Theory Book and the Piano one from Levine, just in case.

Composition-wise, I'm planning to read Jazz Arranging & Composing : A Linear Approach by Bill Dobbins first, because this one deals with small combos exclusively (up to five horns). Seems appropriate to me as a starter.
After that, the ones I'd like to go into are Inside The Score (Rayburn Wright), the two Jazz Scores and Analysis (Richard Lawn) and the Don Sebesky one, The Contemporary Arranger. Pretty much in this order, even though it could change.
 
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Looks good. Do me favor if you can remember and let me know what you think about the Bill Dobbins book so I can tell him. He is genuinely interested in what people think of it and enjoys the feedback, including whether you think anything could have been explained more clearly.
__________
 
R.G. said:
Looks good. Do me favor if you can remember and let me know what you think about the Bill Dobbins book so I can tell him. He is genuinely interested in what people think of it and enjoys the feedback, including whether you think anything could have been explained more clearly.
__________
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Will do, for sure. The other huge aspect drawing me into this book is the emphasis put into horizontal writing (what he's calling a "linear" approach), doing more with less means. I'm very looking forward to go through it as a result.
Anyhow, thanks again, it's appreciated!
 
Many a composer started off by arranging music for big band, and then composing original music for big band or small group jazz ensembles. And, then branching out into all kinds of music.

Don't get 'hung up' on thinking you have to memorize any special 'jazz secrets'. There aren't any 'secrets'. Just write and make sure your chords make sense to whoever is playing the rhythm section part. Double-check what your're naming a chord.

Check out Russ Garcia's books. Book 1: https://www.amazon.com/Professional...fix=russ+garcia+arrangin,aps,244&sr=8-1-fkmr1


Oldies but 'goodies', and especially great for people coming at jazz who done some writing for other genres.
 
cmillar said:
Many a composer started off by arranging music for big band, and then composing original music for big band or small group jazz ensembles. And, then branching out into all kinds of music.

Don't get 'hung up' on thinking you have to memorize any special 'jazz secrets'. There aren't any 'secrets'. Just write and make sure your chords make sense to whoever is playing the rhythm section part. Double-check what your're naming a chord.

Check out Russ Garcia's books. Book 1: https://www.amazon.com/Professional-Arranger-Composer-Book/dp/1458423794/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?crid=TDPAHQNBW2NR&keywords=russ+garcia+arranging&qid=1706968903&sprefix=russ+garcia+arrangin,aps,244&sr=8-1-fkmr1


Oldies but 'goodies', and especially great for people coming at jazz who done some writing for other genres.
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Thank you very much for the advices, it's duly noted and very appreciated!
Indeed, I did notice that many started like this when it comes to writing for the jazz orchestra, by arranging for big bands they were often playing in, that is. Many that are mostly know as 'film composers' even, such as Neal Hefti, Johnny Mandel, Lalo Schifrin or Henry Mancini...
I however also do notice that most people I know who are around my age (millennials) learned that stuff in schools, reason why I'm asking myself if there are some particular "path" and/or bag of tricks to have before starting thinking of arranging and composing in this idiom.

The Russ Garcia book looks nice and is very affordable so I'll definitely check it out. Seems like the second book is a rarity, though! Thank you very much for the recommendation.
 
Another piece of advice that is true for all other genres, and in fact most learning activities: don't try to create something amazing immediately. The most important is to actually create and practice. If you fail completely and hate what you created, just take a moment to think why, and you'll have learned what you should NOT do next time. But do finish what you started. By erasing your main mistakes, you can also reach proficiency. Actually, that might be the only way, unless you are a genius.
 
www.pianogroove.com is a VERY well done site for learning jazz piano in many areas, from just starting out to advanced composition and arranging. I just enrolled for one month as a refresher, wish I had a resource like this all those years ago.
 
When can someone start learning jazz composition? I mean, probably middle school... :) "Jazz" has become an intimidating term in many music circles but I don't think there's any need for that! There are plenty of excellent jazz compositions and recordings that are structurally relatively simple. The books can be helpful and great, but it's best to start by developing an aural understanding of the tunes themselves. You can start very simple indeed: "Tenor Madness" by Sonny Rollins, "Now's The Time" by Charlie Parker, "All Blues" by Miles Davis... Then progress towards "Song For My Father" by Horace Silver, things like that... Then eventually 32-measure standards like "Autumn Leaves."

The Mark Levine books are great. I also highly recommend Dan Haerle's book "The Jazz Language" for a very fast but very thorough deep-dive into harmonic and melodic concepts frequently used in jazz (and all contemporary American music, by extension – Dan's students have been musical directors for the likes of Snoop Dogg, Erykah Badu, Eminem, Rihanna, Rod Stewart, David Bowie, you get the idea). But Dan will be the first to tell you that studying the records is more important than anything!

I'm a jazz composition professor, for what it's worth, so feel free to reach out with questions. Cheers!
 
Skyleo said:
I'm a bit afraid of encountering scales / modes and forms that I don't know about yet right off the bat, though... Maybe I should try a few pages and see if it seems alright.
Click to expand...

I'm unfamiliar with those first two books you mentioned on general jazz theory, but I would think they cover all that and more?

And I’m guessing you have a good Real Book?

Skyleo said:
The other huge aspect drawing me into this book is the emphasis put into horizontal writing (what he's calling a "linear" approach), doing more with less means.
Click to expand...

Yes, good line writing is at the core of every solid arrangement. Herb Pomeroy, former trumpet soloist for Duke Ellington, developed the first advanced pedagogy for it (aptly called: Line Writing), but he never had a desire to publish anything. I think partly because he was always refining it, and partly because his handouts were incomplete without his lectures to go with them, so it would’ve probably been more work than it’s worth to get into book form from a monetary point of view.

The Dobbins book provides good coverage of this same crucial aspect of arranging, and it’s interesting to note that both Herb and Bill were inspired by Duke Ellington's approach to arranging, which in its original context was more sophisticated than the more concerted chordal arrangements and hang voicings of the day. And Ellington himself studied from those Mozart pocket scores.

So many principles of good writing are universal, it’s mainly just the stylistic details that differ.

For some of the best examples of great line writing arrangements, see Bill Holman.
__________
 
R.G. said:
So many principles of good writing are universal, it’s mainly just the stylistic details that differ.

For some of the best examples of great line writing arrangements, see Bill Holman.
__________
Click to expand...
100% agreed, with all this and your whole post!

I can't emphasize enough how important it is for folks learning jazz writing to familiarize themseleves with the music aurally as a top priority. But of course, as with orchestral or choral writing, it's helpful to study scores, too. Bill Holman is a great one (I had the privilege of playing with him some years ago!), along with Ellington/Strayhorn, Neal Hefti, Thad Jones, Jim McNeely, Gil Evans, and plenty more. The books "Inside The Score" and "Changes Over Time" are good resources for large-ensemble writing in jazz, too, with lots of good score excerpts and analysis.

Most of the great jazz composers, though, in my opinion, focused mainly on smaller groups, and you can learn a ton from analyzing a great trio, quartet, or quintet recording. Wayne Shorter, Joe Henderson, Bill Evans, John Coltrane, Herbie Hancock, Joe Zawinul, Pat Metheny, and Tony Williams could keep you busy for years!
 
proggermusic said:
When can someone start learning jazz composition? I mean, probably middle school... :) "Jazz" has become an intimidating term in many music circles but I don't think there's any need for that! There are plenty of excellent jazz compositions and recordings that are structurally relatively simple. The books can be helpful and great, but it's best to start by developing an aural understanding of the tunes themselves. You can start very simple indeed: "Tenor Madness" by Sonny Rollins, "Now's The Time" by Charlie Parker, "All Blues" by Miles Davis... Then progress towards "Song For My Father" by Horace Silver, things like that... Then eventually 32-measure standards like "Autumn Leaves."

The Mark Levine books are great. I also highly recommend Dan Haerle's book "The Jazz Language" for a very fast but very thorough deep-dive into harmonic and melodic concepts frequently used in jazz (and all contemporary American music, by extension – Dan's students have been musical directors for the likes of Snoop Dogg, Erykah Badu, Eminem, Rihanna, Rod Stewart, David Bowie, you get the idea). But Dan will be the first to tell you that studying the records is more important than anything!

I'm a jazz composition professor, for what it's worth, so feel free to reach out with questions. Cheers!
Click to expand...
proggermusic said:
100% agreed, with all this and your whole post!

I can't emphasize enough how important it is for folks learning jazz writing to familiarize themseleves with the music aurally as a top priority. But of course, as with orchestral or choral writing, it's helpful to study scores, too. Bill Holman is a great one (I had the privilege of playing with him some years ago!), along with Ellington/Strayhorn, Neal Hefti, Thad Jones, Jim McNeely, Gil Evans, and plenty more. The books "Inside The Score" and "Changes Over Time" are good resources for large-ensemble writing in jazz, too, with lots of good score excerpts and analysis.

Most of the great jazz composers, though, in my opinion, focused mainly on smaller groups, and you can learn a ton from analyzing a great trio, quartet, or quintet recording. Wayne Shorter, Joe Henderson, Bill Evans, John Coltrane, Herbie Hancock, Joe Zawinul, Pat Metheny, and Tony Williams could keep you busy for years!
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Thank you very much, deeply appreciated! 🙏
Well, fwiw I surprisingly find jazz to be less intimidating than say classical, despite me having a formal education in the latter only! Some of my warmest memories from schools are the moments spent with people (students, educators or performers doing masterclasses) coming from jazz, they really made a lot for me to feel at home there despite my lack of ability.
Along the years, however, I do find myself getting a bit more intimidated to just jump in with jazz compositions and the likes as I find that it's rather easy to sound "jazzy" and actually waaaaay harder to sound authentic, "legit", without what I assume to be a solid foundation. Not that I don't enjoy the more hybrid stuff (on the contrary!) but I find that even that sounds way better when there is a real understanding of the genres that are being blended together. Robert Glasper has some interesting things to say about that, if I remember correctly.

Happy to see you put such an emphasis on prioritizing an aural understanding, as that is basically all of what I did so far. Just seems to make more sense with jazz considering its aural tradition. It also is overall more natural to me as doing things by ear is something I briefly developed even before going the conservatory road... and even then, coming from video game and anime music, I'm used to some of my favourite tunes not having sheet music in the first place, so transcribing was always the way.
Having said that, I also feel like my ears alone can only get me so far without some good ressources, the best of all being mentors or professors.
As an example, despite me buying some scores from some of my favourite jazz arrangers / composers (Vince Mendoza, Toshiko Akiyoshi, Maria Schneider, Miho Hazama, Jacob Mann...), I feel rather reassured to have "Inside The Score" and the two "Jazz Scores and Analysis" as they give me pointers as to what to look at in a jazz score and what to listen to somehow. I may overlook some important elements by being just by myself so I find it helpful in that way. I assume a teacher would be preferable though, and probably nothing beat just being there, in an environment where you can actually "live" the music as it's being made and performed.
On another note, I didn't know there were study scores of Ellington, Neal Hefti or Gil Evans available (outside of the ones in Inside The Score), that's good news! Also honestly the first time I've heard of Bill Holman; that's nice, it's more to listen to.

"The Jazz Language" is one of those books I bookmarked after seeing you mentioning it somewhere btw, definitely one I want to read at some point. Fred Sturm's "Changes Over Time" is another one I wanted to have but this one unfortunately seems hard to find, at least in Europe.
Thank you very much once again for your contribution, very helpful!
 
R.G. said:
I'm unfamiliar with those first two books you mentioned on general jazz theory, but I would think they cover all that and more?

And I’m guessing you have a good Real Book?
Click to expand...
The two books covers those grounds indeed, but it's over the course of around 200 pages for the one I'm reading and practicing with (the Mark Levine one is more than 400 pages). Hence why I'm wondering if there are some basic things I need to make sure I have a solid grasp of before starting delving in any jazz arranging and composition books.

I do have a Real Book but I admit I haven't found much used for it so far. I usually either transcribe the tunes (standards or not) I'm interested in or pick them from the Aebersolds, as they provide backing tracks on top of the lead sheets.

R.G. said:
Yes, good line writing is at the core of every solid arrangement. Herb Pomeroy, former trumpet soloist for Duke Ellington, developed the first advanced pedagogy for it (aptly called: Line Writing), but he never had a desire to publish anything. I think partly because he was always refining it, and partly because his handouts were incomplete without his lectures to go with them, so it would’ve probably been more work than it’s worth to get into book form from a monetary point of view.

The Dobbins book provides good coverage of this same crucial aspect of arranging, and it’s interesting to note that both Herb and Bill were inspired by Duke Ellington's approach to arranging, which in its original context was more sophisticated than the more concerted chordal arrangements and hang voicings of the day. And Ellington himself studied from those Mozart pocket scores.

So many principles of good writing are universal, it’s mainly just the stylistic details that differ.

For some of the best examples of great line writing arrangements, see Bill Holman.
__________
Click to expand...
Very interesting, a thousand thanks!
Yes, I've been feeling that exact thing about line writing and its importance since a couple of years now. As fun as it is to put rich chords after rich chords, I've been more and more feeling the limits of such an approach, and how more can be obtained with less instead, when the lines are well-written and well thought of. It doesn't just make things more sophisticated but actually more catchy as well since there is less of a need to compensate by adding more sounds / notes.
The way I'm currently experiencing it is in terms of dimensions, as in good lines provides more depth to the whole thing, making things sounding less flat as a result. At least, most of my favourite pieces are feeling like that nowadays.

I will make sure to check Bill Holman's work. First time I've heard of his name despite him apparently writing so much for the Buddy Rich Big Band.
 
PaulieDC said:
www.pianogroove.com is a VERY well done site for learning jazz piano in many areas, from just starting out to advanced composition and arranging. I just enrolled for one month as a refresher, wish I had a resource like this all those years ago.
Click to expand...
Many thanks!
When it comes to piano specifically, I plan to eventually take lessons from an institution that is basically specialized in it (the Bill Evans Piano Academy) and I've so far been learning things here and there from a Noah Kellman course, as I personally find myself very much in tune with his style!



So I'm pretty much covered on that front for now but I would have definitely considered it otherwise, so thank you very much for the link.
 
Mitsu99 said:
Another piece of advice that is true for all other genres, and in fact most learning activities: don't try to create something amazing immediately. The most important is to actually create and practice. If you fail completely and hate what you created, just take a moment to think why, and you'll have learned what you should NOT do next time. But do finish what you started. By erasing your main mistakes, you can also reach proficiency. Actually, that might be the only way, unless you are a genius.
Click to expand...
True. As I'm growing slightly older, I find myself a bit more afraid to make obvious mistakes than before, and I'm trying to be rather cautious before jumping in as a result... But maybe there are some mistakes that are simply necessary and thus unavoidable, I don't know.
 
Skyleo said:
I will make sure to check Bill Holman's work. First time I've heard of his name despite him apparently writing so much for the Buddy Rich Big Band.
Click to expand...

Okay, yes, I mentioned him regarding the arranging aspect of your question. One of the great arrangers, very linear approach, contrapuntal, transparent textures, interesting stylistic devices, used to be Stan Kenton's lead arranger, very influential, someone to study for big band writing. (The Dobbins book is more of an arranging book, by the way, but it has application for jazz comp, too. He developed the jazz curriculum at Eastman.)

I guess you know where to purchase arrangements?
__________
 
R.G. said:
Looks good. Do me favor if you can remember and let me know what you think about the Bill Dobbins book so I can tell him. He is genuinely interested in what people think of it and enjoys the feedback, including whether you think anything could have been explained more clearly.
__________
Click to expand...
Please tell Bill thank you for writing that book. I've found it very concise and helpful.

**Leigh
 
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