How can I write crazier Williams-style action cues?

This kind of writing can seem impenetrable from the outside at first, but doing plenty of the courses at https://filmmusicnotes.com/ really helped me get my head around them. Mark's courses are really easy to follow given the complexity of the music analysed, covering the alpha chord, octatonic and hexatonic writing that makes up most of Williams' action cues.

Also, watch lots of Dominic Sewell's breakdowns of William's tracks, free on youtube. Dom covers the cluster chords Williams writes with particularly well.

Also, beyond the writing, there is something about the perfectness of staccato samples that really can't capture the chaos created by these fast violin parts, which is worth taking into account as well. It might be tempting to over-write because the samples don't have the energy of the live performance you hear on the recordings.

So... You're bumping into octotonic madness here. The first measure of V1 - it starts in what I know as octotonic 1 - the scale that starts on C and rises in half step, full step. It plays around in the (0134) from F# to Bb for a bit, then rises up to the (0134) from C to E, but then... in typical williams style, changes octotonic key to the one that starts on C and has whole step, half step. But then immediately switches again to the next and final octotonic key that starts on C# and goes half step full step.

Yep, you should be confused.

Basically, what happens in these "random" sections of action music is various instruments wander around between different octotonic scales, and often different instruments are in different octo scales at the same time. Crazy stuff, but its what gives that "classic dissonance that you can't latch onto" flavour. And then they'll all suddenly converge on a single scale for a while, play a theme, and then maybe fly off into randomness again. At least that's my take on it all at my level of learning so far.

If you haven't already, the Action Music course at Film Music Notes is well worth doing - it explains all this from first principles and really easy to follow and learn.

Bara Matahari Pagi said:

Hey all! I wanna spice up my action cues by making them crazier and more 'random' (I don't know a better word for it), like the stuff you hear in Star Wars, etc.

My action cues tend to be straightforward, often building up from ostinatos or percussion grooves. But in this cue from the Jedi Survivor game for example, it sounds so random and that makes it so interesting! It's like that classic Williams sound!

(btw the music from this game by Stephen Barton and Gordy Haab is so awesome!!)



The violins in the first few bars play this, which is pretty random (at least to me). It doesn't even stick to a specific scale I think, but it works so well! The other instruments also play things that sound pretty random, but in context, it's all so good. And the whole cue doesn't rely on a simple ostinato either, so it sounds interesting!



It sounds like this btw (but this includes an extra bar):
View attachment flight vlns.mp3

So do you guys have any tips for writing crazy action cues like this?

If needed, here's the link to the full score they very generously shared! (this particular cue is on page 1003): https://app.box.com/v/jedisurvivor

Click to expand...

You need a lesson with Domini Sewell https://www.youtube.com/@DominicSewellMusic

He's a Jedi Master

best

ed

GregStuckey said:

Also, beyond the writing, there is something about the perfectness of staccato samples that really can't capture the chaos created by these fast violin parts, which is worth taking into account as well. It might be tempting to over-write because the samples don't have the energy of the live performance you hear on the recordings.

Click to expand...

measured trems are used a lot by Williams to create movement

best

ed

Thanks for the tips, guys!

Paul@Sydney said:

So... You're bumping into octotonic madness here. The first measure of V1 - it starts in what I know as octotonic 1 - the scale that starts on C and rises in half step, full step. It plays around in the (0134) from F# to Bb for a bit, then rises up to the (0134) from C to E, but then... in typical williams style, changes octotonic key to the one that starts on C and has whole step, half step. But then immediately switches again to the next and final octotonic key that starts on C# and goes half step full step.

Yep, you should be confused.

Basically, what happens in these "random" sections of action music is various instruments wander around between different octotonic scales, and often different instruments are in different octo scales at the same time. Crazy stuff, but its what gives that "classic dissonance that you can't latch onto" flavour. And then they'll all suddenly converge on a single scale for a while, play a theme, and then maybe fly off into randomness again. At least that's my take on it all at my level of learning so far.

Click to expand...

I knew it had something to do with octatonic scales haha! I just couldn't figure out what key is it in LOL. It does sound a bit complicated, but I'll learn more about octo scales. Thanks for the suggestion!

I guess the best way to learn is to make a mockup of it lol! No way I have the patience to do the whole thing bc my sight reading skills isn't that good, but I might try to mockup the first few bars to analyze it deeper. Maybe I'll finally understand what's going on after that

Bara Matahari Pagi said:

I guess the best way to learn is to make a mockup of it lol! No way I have the patience to do the whole thing bc my sight reading skills isn't that good, but I might try to mockup the first few bars to analyze it deeper. Maybe I'll finally understand what's going on after that

Click to expand...

Yep, that's always a great way to start. If at the end you still have questions about how Williams (and Barton/Haab) are doing this, I join the others in recommending the FilmMusicNotes.com course, specifically the 'Action Music Harmony' course ($125), because it specifically deals with exactly this style of music, and unlocks the "secrets".

I love your music, Bara, you're a fantastic composer!

Bara Matahari Pagi said:

Hey all! I wanna spice up my action cues by making them crazier and more 'random' (I don't know a better word for it), like the stuff you hear in Star Wars, etc.

My action cues tend to be straightforward, often building up from ostinatos or percussion grooves. But in this cue from the Jedi Survivor game for example, it sounds so random and that makes it so interesting! It's like that classic Williams sound!

(btw the music from this game by Stephen Barton and Gordy Haab is so awesome!!)



The violins in the first few bars play this, which is pretty random (at least to me). It doesn't even stick to a specific scale I think, but it works so well! The other instruments also play things that sound pretty random, but in context, it's all so good. And the whole cue doesn't rely on a simple ostinato either, so it sounds interesting!



It sounds like this btw (but this includes an extra bar):
View attachment flight vlns.mp3

So do you guys have any tips for writing crazy action cues like this?

If needed, here's the link to the full score they very generously shared! (this particular cue is on page 1003): https://app.box.com/v/jedisurvivor

Click to expand...

You should implement gamelan, not sure if many did it - if anyone. Go to Jogja and record the instruments at the Sultan Palace and throw them a bit out of tune. Make samples of some. Gamelan and actions cues must be ideal. This would be your niche, and nobody can beat it. As a strawberry on top: Jathilan.

Gingerbread said:

I love your music, Bara, you're a fantastic composer!

Click to expand...

I'll second this, always very impressed with your stuff Bara! I can also definitely recommend the action music courses by Mark Richards. He has several courses on the subject really goes through using hexatonic and octatonic and Hungarian minor step by step, with tons of references to film scores, especially (well mainly for the action music courses) John Williams. I think it's a good blend of analysis of scores as well as theory, and lots of examples of putting it into practice where he composes a cue using the tools that were just covered in that chapter.

ed buller said:

You need a lesson with Domini Sewell https://www.youtube.com/@DominicSewellMusic

He's a Jedi Master

best

ed

Click to expand...

I agree. Typo -- it's Dominic

Another vote for Filmmusicnotes. Loads of info & value in exactly that area

Besides doing a mockup, I would recommend you check Academy of Scoring Arts lecture on John Williams' action cues. There is a system of scales and chords he uses that gives you that "random" and "continuous" sound. You can totally implement on your own music. Really worth checking, linked bellow.

The Harmonic Techniques of John Williams’s Action Music

–Use of the relevant textures.
–Use of the relevant devices within those textures.
–Rhythmic dissonance and other rhythmic devices.
–Transparent orchestration of the above to ground, unify, and clarify the effect.
–Mixture of diatonic and non-diatonic pitch subsets, especially the symmetrical and synthetic types.
–Post-tonal triadic techniques, including thirds relations.

There are some very efficient workflows for these types of kinetic frenetic cues that different composers have developed to get from point A to point B with the least amount of rigmarole and time.

Try to practice on the appropriate types of action scenes, preferably for movies you haven't seen, so you can go through the whole process.
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Thank you so much, all! I guess I should take a look at Filmmusicnotes' course. It does seem like a great one for this topic!

And wow, thanks a lot @Gingerbread and @blaggins for the kind words! I always try to make my music better that's why starting threads like this helps me a lot! I'll try to mockup the first few bars, I'm sure there's a lot to learn from there.

PeterN said:

You should implement gamelan, not sure if many did it - if anyone. Go to Jogja and record the instruments at the Sultan Palace and throw them a bit out of tune. Make samples of some. Gamelan and actions cues must be ideal. This would be your niche, and nobody can beat it. As a strawberry on top: Jathilan.

Click to expand...

And about this, as an Indonesian myself, yes I think that would be great for a unique action cue sound! But I originally meant I want to learn more about the classic Williams type of action cues.

In bar 36-44 (timestamped below) I can't even figure out what's happening! The bass part sounds totally random to me. It sounds so complicated, especially from bar 40.

I'm curious, are there any specific scales or techniques that can be a guideline to write something like that section? Or is it really all octatonic? (I haven't analyzed that section yet).

So:

This is a HUGE subject. What you are trying to do ...is what I tried to do when I dipped my toe in this sort of music. Logic said "There MUST be a system ,that can be applied and will yield a consistent result!!" We are taught about keys, and about borrowed chords , about chromaticism and if we are Bold twelve tone and Modes of limited Transposition, Pitch set Theory , Bitonality, Compound Cyclical Collections, Inversional Symmetry and AXIS concept, etc etc.....

But...and this is hard to grasp. Williams and a very few others, have taken it to the next level were multiple disciplines can be applied simultaneously. I love Gordy Haab's music but TBH find this section a tiny bit messy, but that's probably the point. It sounds like you are hearing: Planning, Chromaticism and Octatatonic harmony all at once. As well as a little bitonality I suspect.

So trying to find one constant technique does NOT work. This is NOT something that can be learned quickly. I encourage you to join Dominic's Petreon channel , then you'll get scores with his analysis and also invest in the Filmusicnotes: ACTION COURSE:


Best
ed

ed buller said:

It sounds like you are hearing: Planning, Chromaticism and Octatatonic harmony all at once. As well as a little bitonality I suspect.

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Do you mean bitonality as a composition device alone or bitonality as a perceived effect?
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R.G. said:

Do you mean bitonality as a composition device alone or bitonality as a perceived effect?
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Click to expand...

I hear it as a perceived effect. Pedal in one key chords in a different one. probably NOT strict Bi-Tonality ( what is other than Ives?) but to my uneducated ears I hear two distinctive key poles.



This has that sort of effect, Very Holst. But Without the pedal the chords would mean something else.

This is a much clearer example:



Again, someone with a deeper grasp on these things might well NOT think of this as bitonality

best

ed

Bara Matahari Pagi said:

In bar 36-44 (timestamped below) I can't even figure out what's happening! The bass part sounds totally random to me. It sounds so complicated, especially from bar 40.

I'm curious, are there any specific scales or techniques that can be a guideline to write something like that section? Or is it really all octatonic? (I haven't analyzed that section yet).

Click to expand...

I only have time to very briefly address bars 36 thru 39. First off, there is no chromaticism or bitonality of any kind here, so don’t be confused by post no. 17.

Bars 36 & 37 can largely be summed up as a juxtaposition of symmetrical-augmented subsets and symmetrical—diminished subsets, delineated in the orchestral texture. (This is partly what I was talking about in post no. 14.) The violins are doing something you could kind of compare to a particular type of descant counterpoint if you don’t put too fine a point on it, but specifically, they more or less straddle those juxtapositions.

Then bars 38 & 39 are almost verbatim the previous two bars, but transposed up a whole step. This is a composer's best friend when the deadline is yesterday.

I wish I had the time to show you a step by step workflow for writing like this, or at least to reverse engineer what's here, but with any luck maybe someone else here will step in and do that.
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