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Intuitive interfaces for sample based sound design?

H

holonology

Active Member
I'll start out by saying that I think we're in an interesting time for VSTs. Where the technology of the past had to fight to create a synth with 60 presets on board, sound design became a must. Now, in an era of bundles that ship wit thousands of presets, many folks (myself included) sift rather than design patches and we choose & tweak rather than starting from a saw-wave up. But where your sampler was also restricted to loading a handful of samples into a project, you can now easily have layer upon layer and most CPUs can handle it.

The standard wavetable synth will of course be a mainstay of music for a long time. But that processing power offers up a very specific opportunity for some interesting synths. And there is an interesting undercurrent of new sound designers wanting to work in this way.

I've heard more than one artist discuss their interest in the art of sample based synthesis. Key to their method of sound design is the idea of "finding" interesting sounds within existing sound sources, rather than starting from a sawsaw wave and trying to make it interesting through modulation.

The most obvious proponent of this that I can think of is the way we had Iris from iZotope (RIP.) Then that synth seems to have inspired a new generation of similar or tangiential synths. One of these is of course Novum by Dawesome. Peter has done a great job I feel of making sound design attractive and appealing to people like me who get very easily turned off. I love this quote from him specifically:
  • Intuition over numbers. When I make music, I rarely (want to) think in numbers and maths, I want my creative process to flow with intuition.
  • Visual Arts can be a source of inspiration for sound design and music and enriches the way you think and create sound.
The other, and maybe most honed example of this sort of design I've seen is Lunacy Audio's Cube. The 4 tweakable nodes around the main cube itself look really inviting for someone more interested in that Iris style of experimentation. I think the key thing about it, is it looks logically laid out and fun, especially with all the options to randomise and to rework sounds together. What I like about this is that even if you're not an expert sound designer, it would encourage you to keep trying and not get lost in the dials - since you kinda can't!

Sidebar: another classic example of this would have to be Portal - Output. Not an instrument, but the way you play that X-Y pad is a lot of fun.

I guess what I'm interested in is whether there are any other candidates in this area specifically in the arena of sample based instruments? Are Cube and maybe Novum the only game in town? I'm thinking of sample based instruments that allow you to find "samples within samples" and sound design a bit, but without so much complexity. Ideally with a focus on a fun interface that encourages you to play and quicjly export ideas, rather than get lost in the dials and numbers.
Click to read more...
 
holonology said:
I'll start out by saying that I think we're in an interesting time for VSTs. Where the technology of the past had to fight to create a synth with 60 presets on board, sound design became a must. Now, in an era of bundles that ship wit thousands of presets, many folks (myself included) sift rather than design patches and we choose & tweak rather than starting from a saw-wave up. But where your sampler was also restricted to loading a handful of samples into a project, you can now easily have layer upon layer and most CPUs can handle it.

The standard wavetable synth will of course be a mainstay of music for a long time. But that processing power offers up a very specific opportunity for some interesting synths. And there is an interesting undercurrent of new sound designers wanting to work in this way.

I've heard more than one artist discuss their interest in the art of sample based synthesis. Key to their method of sound design is the idea of "finding" interesting sounds within existing sound sources, rather than starting from a sawsaw wave and trying to make it interesting through modulation.

The most obvious proponent of this that I can think of is the way we had Iris from iZotope (RIP.) Then that synth seems to have inspired a new generation of similar or tangiential synths. One of these is of course Novum by Dawesome. Peter has done a great job I feel of making sound design attractive and appealing to people like me who get very easily turned off. I love this quote from him specifically:
  • Intuition over numbers. When I make music, I rarely (want to) think in numbers and maths, I want my creative process to flow with intuition.
  • Visual Arts can be a source of inspiration for sound design and music and enriches the way you think and create sound.
The other, and maybe most honed example of this sort of design I've seen is Lunacy Audio's Cube. The 4 tweakable nodes around the main cube itself look really inviting for someone more interested in that Iris style of experimentation. I think the key thing about it, is it looks logically laid out and fun, especially with all the options to randomise and to rework sounds together. What I like about this is that even if you're not an expert sound designer, it would encourage you to keep trying and not get lost in the dials - since you kinda can't!

Sidebar: another classic example of this would have to be Portal - Output. Not an instrument, but the way you play that X-Y pad is a lot of fun.

I guess what I'm interested in is whether there are any other candidates in this area specifically in the arena of sample based instruments? Are Cube and maybe Novum the only game in town? I'm thinking of sample based instruments that allow you to find "samples within samples" and sound design a bit, but without so much complexity. Ideally with a focus on a fun interface that encourages you to play and quicjly export ideas, rather than get lost in the dials and numbers.
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SynPlant
 
I wouldn't say Redux is intuitive, but it's certainly a unique sampler.



Renoise Redux | Renoise

Renoise is a digital audio workstation. It lets you compose, edit and record production-quality audio using a music tracker-based approach. It features a wide range of built-in audio processors, alongside support for all commonly used virtual instrument and effect plug-in formats.
www.renoise.com www.renoise.com
 
Do you want to create playable instruments in a sampler? Or do you want to simply create sound effects?

For effects there are specialized tools like the ones from developers like Soundmorph, Krotos Audio, Boom Library, Glitchmachines.
 
Pier said:
I wouldn't say Redux is intuitive, but it's certainly a unique sampler.



Renoise Redux | Renoise

Renoise is a digital audio workstation. It lets you compose, edit and record production-quality audio using a music tracker-based approach. It features a wide range of built-in audio processors, alongside support for all commonly used virtual instrument and effect plug-in formats.
www.renoise.com www.renoise.com
Click to expand...

Ah man this takes me back (but not far!) I had a Polyend Tracker. Didn’t quite work out for me but the SW equivalent would be interesting.
Sophus said:
Do you want to create playable instruments in a sampler? Or do you want to simply create sound effects?
Click to expand...
Playable instruments. I guess in a nutshell I was thinking surely Novum (granular/spectral) and the Cube (vector) have come up with really interesting and crucially intuitive ways of messing with your samples. And I guess it’s just I’d be interested to hear of other makers in this space who do similar stuff.
 
There are so many, it's a long list:
- SoundMiners Radium Sampler (but its too expensive if you don't want SoundMiner)
- TAL Sampler
- All of the granular plugins especially Crusher X
- GRM Tools
- Unfiltered Audio Sandman Pro
- Cargo Cult ENVY
- MaxMSP and especially MaxforLIVE devices
- ditto for Reaktor, some great ensembles
- while it's not a plugin Metasynth is unique and capable of incredible sounds!



But we are still a long way from true sound analysis & seamless high quality resynthesis eg Kyma would be closest but it still has a long way to go...
 
@timprebble I'm fighting with myself for the last six or seven years to get a Mac simply to work with Metasynth and Artmatic from U&I. I have no other usage for a Mac so that would be costly investment even if I only get a Mac mini. I'm still not sure about it.

I can somewhat recreate the functionality of Metasynth with Photosounder and some other VST plugins.
 
Sophus said:
@timprebble I'm fighting with myself for the last six or seven years to get a Mac simply to work with Metasynth and Artmatic from U&I. I have no other usage for a Mac so that would be costly investment even if I only get a Mac mini. I'm still not sure about it.

I can somewhat recreate the functionality of Metasynth with Photosounder and some other VST plugins.
Click to expand...

I've been using Metasynth since the late 90s - indispensable!! The recent complete rewrite of all their apps for new hardware (over the last year or two) has seen some huge changes... It's not 'easy to use' or particularly intutive as the OP desires, but deep tools tend to last a long time as they are bottomless and reward learning eg using Metasynth for 30 years & still love it!

re getting a Mac, at least now you could pickup a cheaper M1 or M2 laptop (or a dirt cheap Intel Mac laptop from someone upgrading) and be up & running without having spent the huge sums previously required. A powerful Intel laptop would cost less than Metasynth & xX software... But wrangling multiple platforms is a PITA eg I notice some 'ported' apps like SampleRobot that really aren't ported to OSX (they operate as PC software/ui inside a Mac shell) as feeling weird as the ux is so different.
 
Cube is pretty cool.

As for "intuitive interface" for sample-based patches, I'm a big fan of Pigments. The layout is really easy to understand, and it's great for throwing your own samples in and manipulating them in various ways. I quite often start from scratch with it.

Yeah, I miss Iris too. That was such an underrated gem, and it's a bummer Izotope gave up on it, because it could've become even greater.
 
Ever thought of either Halion (granular (fantastic engine) + spectral (spectral is really next level) + you've never seen wavetable unless you saw what this thing can do) or Falcon (Ircam oscillators)? Or even Omnisphere (stacking, granular, unison and velocity fading between splits)?

Or Backbone (it's a synth, not a drum machine) or even Padshop?
 
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If you are on Logic Pro X, its 10.8 update has a new granular/additive/spectral sampler: Alchemy Sampler.

With this sampler plus the Apple loops inside LPX I have an endless source of unique sounds I am using in my current Xenakis/Zappa cloud music project.

This video can get you started -- despite his ambient EDM slant, he does the job on proper orientation.

Good luck.
 
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I was gonna suggest Alchemy, the original, but I haven't even touched the new Alchemy sampler from the new update yet. Sounds cool!

Alchemy lets you use basically anything for a sound-source and then go hog-wild tweaking it with its extensive routing and modulation options... Definitely not always the most intuitive workflow, though. Not the worst, either, by any means. But not exactly a throw-and-go kind of UI, most of the time. Very powerful, though, and free if you're on Logic already!
 
Yeah you know I really like the look of Sample Alchemy. It’s genuinely an interesting use case.

I’m currently exploring the Logic trial to see if my Ableton brain will work with it. I’m a fan of stock plugins and I think a lot of the logic ones are pretty interesting. It’s just whether I can get my head around the workflow.

It’s a possibility for sure
 
I haven't worked with every DAW out there, just a few of the main ones (including Ableton and ProTools), but from what I've experienced the stock Logic plugins are the best of the bunch. You can do a crazy amount of good work with those and nothing else. I have a gluttonous plugin collection but I still use certain stock Logic tools daily.
 
Yeah for sure. I’m Ableton and it’s been a great starting point for me. I know you shouldn’t chop & change DAWs, but the new features have had me download the Logic trial (oops). For sure there are some differences in workflow. The biggest one seems to be the way sends and busses are set up, but I feel that can be covered off with a template. I’m already starting to see how they cover off the need for lots of track groups in Ableton via aux & bus tracks. Ableton is modular and therefore I think you need to be a little more of a sound designer to get the most out of it. Where the presets I’ve encountered so far in Logic feel closer to the sort of music I’m making. On the flip side, Logic feels a little more deliberate at times while Ableton is very drag & drop, which is definitely something I’d miss. However the devices and instruments that Logic has as stock are more inspiring to me out of the box. I think I’d want Sample alchemy if it were a 3rd party plug-in. In part, the appeal of Logic is down to the fact that they actually open full screen, where editing anything for more than 5 minutes in Ableton gets a bit tricky in a tiny box at the bottom of the screen. The stock devices are often good, but I guess that’s only true if you actually use them. I hear logic essentially never charges for updates. So if I can get my head around the workflow in 3 months, I may take the cash I would have used to upgrade to Ableton 12 and put it into Logic. I do have some 3rd party stuff that I would bring with me, but I’d be looking to slim that right down and focus mainly on stock. Especially with the whole iPad thing. I feel like the way Logic is going, the stock devices seem more oriented around the sort of thing I mentioned about in my first post - fun sample manipulation. It could be something I’d look at moving to if I can get into the workflow.
 
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Soundpaint deserves a mention too. The only proprietary player that is open to sample import AND it let’s the user create their own patches (8 multi-sample slots) from the entire Soundpaint core sample pool that user owns (+ whatever samples they want to import).

Because it is entirely not hip and absolutely not done these days to remotely like anything done by 8Dio (at least on these boards) I think this aspect often gets overlooked. But it is in fact a rather cool feature. I wish more vendors would open up their source material like that in their player. If Spitfire would have just one player and let you make a new patch out of BBCSO Violins 1, layered with some Alternative Solo Strings weirdness and a marcato sample start bit out of SSO, that player would instantly invite in so much more options and creativity for the users who licensed those samples. Well… Soundpaint does this and it is a fantastic feature for sound design but also to just allow the user to create “playable” new “regular” patches.
 
I love to work with NI Form for that approach! I think it's intuitive or let's say I am not sure about what I am actually doing half the time. It affords twiddling. Looks beautiful, too.

I always liked how the granular engines of the NI *light series (Pharlight a.s.o.) allowed to drag and drop your own sound sources. Advantage over Form is you can have multiple playheads traversing your sample window.

I have a hunch the intuitiveness of this suggestion might be up for debate, but for me, modular environments are very playful as nothing is set in stone and I can just experiment. With that in mind, VCV and Reaktor Blocks both offer a unique way to start from a sample, because other than most synth paradigm VSTs, a modular environment can be set up to accept live audio input, grab a sample of varying lengths and do unspeakable things to it.
 
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muratkayi said:
I always liked how the granular engines of the NI *light series (Pharlight a.s.o.) allowed to drag and drop your own sound sources. Advantage over Form is you can have multiple plaheads traversing your sample window.
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Hmmm this I need to investigate! So far I've only messsed with the (excellent) presets
 
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